How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

[_SteelHead]

interesting points DarkHelmet, which is why I labeled the thesis as DREK.

[_Uncle Ed]

The doctrines of the Abrahamic religions are almost entirely good, at least well-intended.

By "doctrines" do you mean the stuff that is in the Old Testament? And when you say "entirely good" are you including the stuff that by today's standards would be classified as rape, murder, and genocide?

Different times and cultures. The barbarism was still in their face on every hand. The intended consequences of the Law of Moses are good ones, compared to the run of human behavior of those times. Jesus fulfilled the Law and embarked on a higher one. Joseph Smith took it another step up. (I disagree with the notion that the LDS faith is "behind the curve" of the world's changes for the better....)

[_Uncle Ed]

Society is becoming more humane, more aware and accepting of our differences and more willing to embrace difference.

This leaves the dogmatic, barbarous doctrines and policies of churches exposed for what they are - inhumane and embarrassing. If the LDS church was becoming better due to the guidance of god, it would be ahead of the curve, not behind.

Really, behind the curve of world behavior? What an amazing thing to say.

And why is "society becoming more humane"? In spite of religion? If we could go back to any point and toss religion out entirely, what medium would take its place as the civilizing and uplifting factor that makes the difference today?

I see a continuous upgrading of our species' societal interactions during our shared history. And religions have played an essential part in that upgrading, despite the sometimes bad effects that religions also cause....

[_SteelHead]

Right.... So the LDS church leads the curve on racism, womens' rights, and homosexual rights?


HAHA!!! You made a funny.

And why is "society becoming more humane"? In spite of religion? If we could go back to any point and toss religion out entirely, what medium would take its place as the civilizing and uplifting factor that makes the difference today?

Please show that religion has made the world more humane....... How many died last week because of religion?

Humanity, dialogue, discussion, the free exchange of information and knowledge have made the world more humane.

Religion (most, especially of the organized type) is being pulled along kicking and screaming. I will admit that religion has had positive influence, it has also had negative. Remove religion from the equation and what happens? Impossible to know with the available data, but the world is become more secular. So perhaps we can someday make some better projections.

[_Chap]

....

All the chunks of pseudo-metaphysics seems to end with dots. Mostly three, but sometimes four.

Why?

Or perhaps just ....

[_DarkHelmet]

Right.... So the LDS church leads the curve on racism, womens' rights, and homosexual rights?


HAHA!!! You made a funny.

And why is "society becoming more humane"? In spite of religion? If we could go back to any point and toss religion out entirely, what medium would take its place as the civilizing and uplifting factor that makes the difference today?

Please show that religion has made the world more humane....... How many died last week because of religion?

Humanity, dialogue, discussion, the free exchange of information and knowledge have made the world more humane.

Religion (most, especially of the organized type) is being pulled along kicking and screaming. I will admit that religion has had positive influence, it has also had negative. Remove religion from the equation and what happens? Impossible to know with the available data, but the world is become more secular. So perhaps we can someday make some better projections.

The debate on whether religion is a positive or negative influence on the world reminds me of the famous quote by Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Of course it's a little simplistic. Any organization can coerce it's members to do evil things. That's why most critics of religion specify "organized" religion. Any time you get a man or group of men in such extreme positions of power and control over large groups of people convincing them that they are the chosen ones and those outside the group are evil, bad things are bound to happen, especially when you have many groups like this competing for members.

[_Themis]

Why is it that in every case the missing documents are assumed to support the authenticity of the Book of Abraham and in every case the extant documents do not?

An excellent question.

[_Themis]

Gee also argues that we're missing about 3/4 of the Book of Abraham text Joseph Smith translated, and others have argued that we're missing a translation of the Record of Joseph as well.

I may be wrong, but it seems this argument is desired in order for them to try and support their idea that Joesph translated it all right away and that all the other stuff from the KEP is "the scribes did it" theory.

[_SteelHead]

42

An excellent answer.

[_Bazooka]

Why is it that in every case the missing documents are assumed to support the authenticity of the Book of Abraham and in every case the extant documents do not?

An excellent question.

God likes to hide important stuff, like the actual papyrus, the gold plates, steel swords etc. He's tricky that way.