How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

[_Sethbag]

If you are going to fault the LDS faith because of the screwups in it then the same applies to every other institution of man.

Absolutely. I do in fact treat the LDS church just like every other institution of man. Because it is in fact just an institution of man like every other one.

The problem is that the LDS church claims to be something that every other institution of man is not, ie: actually created and formed via the power and authority, and truth, and revelation, and inspiration of the Creator of the Entire Freaking Universe.

And, like it or not, people are going to have some expectations of such an institution, were one actually to exist: perhaps first among these would be that it would be somehow distinguishable from the millions of plainly man-made institutions in the world. The LDS church isn't.

We need to allow some charity toward human weakness. The doctrines of the Abrahamic religions are almost entirely good, at least well-intended. But they are manmade doctrines, many of them less than facile today thousands of years after their advent. Mormonism, the mainstream version at least, has been morphing away from the harmful applications or even from certain beliefs. It is becoming a better religion. Christianity has been improving itself for hundreds of years. Islam is behind, but also improving. These latest extremism events are the death throes of a dying fundamentalism.

Na und?

Included in all of what you just said, is there some evidence that should lead anyone to believe that the LDS church, of all the religions you mentioned, was anything other than a manmade religion?

Are you willing to allow "growing pains" or not to religion?...

Sure. I don't expect the LDS church to act like or be anything other than a manmade institution, because that's all it is. Growing pains and all. But "allowing growing pains" does not, to me, include a mandate to regard the LDS church as somehow the creation of the Creator of the Universe, when all other indications lead to the contrary conclusion, ie: that the LDS church is manmade in exactly the same way that every other institution or religion on Earth is, has ever been, or ever will be.

[_Sethbag]

Why is it that in every case the missing documents are assumed to support the authenticity of the Book of Abraham and in every case the extant documents do not?

An excellent question.

Because it would be even more damning if the missing documents also didn't support the book's authenticity, of course.

[_SteelHead]

Hell, if they found another 45 feet of papyrus with Joseph Smith's scribbling all over it to identify it as the mythical missing papyrus, it would be irrelevant.

We all know there is no way any scroll contemporary to the ones we have are actually going to contain anything approaching the writings of Abraham or Joseph in Egypt. The mummy is from about 2K years too late. It would be more funerary documents concurrent with the era in which it was produced.

So the apologists would just double down on the catalyst theory.

[_Shulem]

God likes to hide important stuff, like the actual papyrus, the gold plates, steel swords etc. He's tricky that way.

Wait, damnit! God did not hide the hieroglyphic writing of Facsimile No. 3 which the Polygamous Joseph Smith translated for the whole church and world -- being published in the Times & Seasons.

Mormon revelations from the President of the Church took that writing and translated for everyone to see. Now that we see it, we laugh at hell at Joseph Smith and the poor Mormons are stuck with that crap and don't know what to do with it. Mormons can take the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 and stuff them up their noses in the name of holy Joe Smith!



Paul O

[_DarkHelmet]

Hell, if they found another 45 feet of papyrus with Joseph Smith's scribbling all over it to identify it as the mythical missing papyrus, it would be irrelevant.

But what if we found this extremely rare painting of Mary, the mother of Jesus, painted by Jesus himself, using his own hand upon canvas. Of course, the painting was damaged and Joseph Smith had to draw the head back on, but isn't it marvelous? An actual painting by Jesus Christ of his mother in a chair.

[_Shulem]

How about this crap from the Mormon revelations? It's supposed to be Abraham and his [removed] wives. It's [removed] Joe Smith spouting out more crap. And what does the First Presidency have to say about it? Nothing. Those sorry [removed] are nothing but cowards -- too scared to face the reality that their testimonkeys of the Book of Abraham and the papyrus are complete nonsense. So, I sit here and mock the church and it's stupid revelations and challenge the First Presidency to do something about it if they can. Those cowards are nothing but skunks and dogs for the world to laugh at. -----------------

Fig. 1. Abraham, in the residence of God depicted with three plural wives, exceedingly onto the feast of Enish-go-on-dosh, which is the planet [link] of grand procreation near onto the celestial or the place where God resides; holding his hand in praise of Mother Gonhorra and in merriment to the hymns of the orb spheres, Oliblish.

Fig. 2, Fig. 3, Fig. 4. Wives of Abraham, Kal-el, Kal-ale, and O-Rhea, being perfect physical beings and in appearance and of name, as delightsome on Kolob see much in similarity, except as in name and more so in the presence of the fourth Horb of Kolob.

Fig. 5. A Kalumbumdum of the 5th degree. One Kalumbumdum is always near onto Heavenly Mother Gonhorra nigh onto Kliflosisis. Also ½ Seon of Kalumbumdum.

Fig. 6. Represents the Shroud of the Holy Ghost, also called Ba depicted by Egyptians as Falcon of the Nile, vessel of the soul, nigh onto Kolob carried.

Fig. 7. The grand Key Kae-e-vanrash [see also] [ref., 4th - Degree] of the Holy Priesthood, as revealed to Adam in the Garden of Eden, as also to Melchizedek, and all to whom the Priesthood was revealed.

Fig. 8. Ought not to be revealed unto the world at the present time; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God Carion; will be given in the own fullness of time of the Lord. This translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.

Fig. 9. The three quarters of the needle of Liahona, nigh onto Elohim and Mother Gonhorra.

Fig. 10. The spirit of the serpent of Eden imprisoned behind the Veil of Floeese of Raukeeyang or the Moon, in other words, imprisoned through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es of Hmer-guh-ga-gosh, or Iiki-o-mie-gos.

Fig. 11. Sign of Moo-Omn, onto the Lord. Cipher Mpeg of the idolatrous god of Mahmackrah, [*] grand Key of Urim, Kae-e-vanrash [external link] even onto Thumim.

[_Themis]

Hell, if they found another 45 feet of papyrus with Joseph Smith's scribbling all over it to identify it as the mythical missing papyrus, it would be irrelevant.

But what if we found this extremely rare painting of Mary, the mother of Jesus, painted by Jesus himself, using his own hand upon canvas. Of course, the painting was damaged and Joseph Smith had to draw the head back on, but isn't it marvelous? An actual painting by Jesus Christ of his mother in a chair.

I think the incorrect restorative attempt of Joesph can be defended in the sense maybe God didn't give him good information on how it would look. Of course the problem is that with the missing parts, most in Joseph day would have thought sacrificial scene. Even with fac 2 you could argue that they were adding stuff to it to make it look better for publication. What cannot be defended is Joseph's claimed translations of the facsimiles. He gets them very wrong. A partial hit or two is not unexpected. Apologia wants to focus on the partials and hope one will forget about he 99% he got wrong. You get a fail if you cannot get even half right, so when Joseph gets almost everything wrong we know he is making it up. Apologists seem to understand this when evaluating everyone else who fails a test miserably but gave answers to all the questions.

I love Shulem's focus on fac 3. With so much damning evidence against Joseph it really is the pinnacle of this. He got the whole fac wrong. We know what it says because it has text with the image.

I love Joesph's partial hit with fac 1 with the four jars representing Gods. This is an easy deduction many people would have made as well, but you have almost no chance of getting their names right unless you understand Egyptian or have God giving you the names. How could Joseph have known this? Oh ya, he didn't get them right at all.

[_Shulem]

I love Shulem's focus on fac 3. With so much damning evidence against Joseph it really is the pinnacle of this. He got the whole fac wrong. We know what it says because it has text with the image.

Thank you. I know it must be like a broken record the way I go on and on about it but the drum beat must go on. It's the easiest way to take a swipe at the Polygamous Joseph Smith's revelations and demonstrate that he was completely wrong. Faithful members of the church don't know what to do about it other than to ignore it and figure it's really not that important and that we should just focus on the chapters of the Book of Abraham and not the titles of the Facsimiles. But all along these more informed members know about it and have to sear their consciences and deny reality in order to protect their testimonies which they believe Trump anything and everything. If Joe Smith himself rose from the dead and confessed his lies the church would not believe it. They would say it was a spirit or a devil.

Trust me though, every member that learns the truth about Facsimile No. 3 will somehow have to cram it all into their brains and it will to some degree haunt them. I feel it's an excellent way to attack the church and thus impede its forward progress. It's sad how people join that crappy church and are handed a copy of Facsimile No. 3 and told it's canon. Only a cult would do something like that. So, it's time to take the cult by the horns and pull it down and stake it right in the heart -- and Facsimile No. 3 makes a long sharp spear!

Paul O

[_Shulem]

I love Joesph's partial hit with fac 1 with the four jars representing Gods. This is an easy deduction many people would have made as well, but you have almost no chance of getting their names right unless you understand Egyptian or have God giving you the names. How could Joseph have known this? Oh ya, he didn't get them right at all.

You're so right on all accounts. The names that Joseph made up and assigned to the heathen godlike figures are no more valid than any of the names he made up in the chapters of the Book of Abraham story itself. It's all made up. None of it was translated like he led the church to believe. Joseph Smith simply pretended that he had the power and gift from God to translate from the ancient dead Egyptian language and in doing so he really came up with a whopper.

So, bottom line, the names of the four gods are completely wrong. Joseph made it up and lied. He lied about a lot of other things too and this is what Mormons must ultimate face. But I've learned in life that Mormons aren't really interested in truth but only in preserving their cult testimonies which they think was given them from God. It's really quite sinister if you think about it.

Paul O

[_Uncle Ed]

...
I don't expect the LDS church to act like or be anything other than a manmade institution, because that's all it is. Growing pains and all. But "allowing growing pains" does not, to me, include a mandate to regard the LDS church as somehow the creation of the Creator of the Universe, when all other indications lead to the contrary conclusion, ie: that the LDS church is manmade in exactly the same way that every other institution or religion on Earth is, has ever been, or ever will be.

It is my belief as well, that all religions are manmade. Everything in the "world of humans" that derives from us is without a doubt manmade. That doesn't mean that "God" isn't involved in the making of what we make, or even make up.

It seems that your biggest fault with the LDS faith is its exclusive truth and authority claims. Probably that is my main beef with the contemporary Church. There seems to be a diminishing veracity in promoting such claims. More conference talks seem to emphasize priesthood "power and authority" as the main literal difference between the LDS and other religions. Certainly, any attempt to point to empirical differences, with the LDS version showing up as producing superior people and lifestyle, is doomed to fail on the grounds of lacking or contrary evidence and opinion. There might have been a time when Mormons as a whole were noticably advantaged in their marriages, home life and personal health, not to leave out enlightenment and level of education, etc. If any such advantages exist, they only do so arguably, depending on how you use statistics.

There is no superiority, even living "in the shadow of the temple(s)", of Mormons to non Mormons. There is no exclusive "authority" to pronounce the rest of the world somehow lacking in their expectations of the afterlife. To look at them with a straight face and assert that without temple sealing their families will not be together is highly annoying to anyone who already has a traditional belief in continuing relationships in the hereafter.

Mormons will come under greater scrutiny in the near future, and these exclusivity doctrines, which fundamentally separate "us and them", will not entice other good even religious people, they will repel: especially when Mormons do not have the proof of being a more blessed people than anybody else....