Uncle Ed wrote:You are convinced that Joseph Smith (at least some of the time) knew he was defrauding his believers. How about a solid CFR for that?
Gold Plates. Enjoy.
No, we don't KNOW the Book of Mormon is fiction. The evidence points to it being fiction more than a historical record. But that's only if you insist on a full hemispheric model.
I would disagree. The evidence is very strong, and LGT doesn't really help. Don't be fooled by some of the poor apologia.
You know of course that Joseph Smith was creating an "Egyptian grammar" to aid in translating. He was sincerely trying to expand his understanding.
I think Joseph had an interest in other languages, especially Egyptian. I think he had a lot of interest in religion as well. Many, if not most, of our religious charlatans do.
At the time Egyptian was a virtually unknown language, so Joseph Smith was legitimately confident in his growing abilities. He appears to have been 95%+ mistaken, however. Calling him a moron because he had no knowledge above and beyond the Egyptologists of the day is hardly fair.
It is more then fair. Joseph claimed the papyri contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph from the start. I find it hard to believe God would give him this idea, so it is really left with him coming up with it. You have to be a real Moron to make this claim about something you have no hope in really knowing and actually believe it. maybe over time one an convince themselves of their lies, but you still have to be a moron to do it.
When he was "in a vision" his whole manner changed, according to witnesses.
One of the traits of a good physic as well. Stating this suggests you would have fell for this trick as they did.
What parts of his assertions did he not believe himself?
I already listed the Book of Mormon, since he would have to know he is making it up unless of course he is a moron. The same really goes for the Book of Abraham as I posted above. Thinking that what comes into your brain is from God makes one a Moron. How do they know this? Most people are smart enough to not fall for this with most if not all of their own thoughts and feelings. I tend to think Joseph was not this much of a moron. That doesn't mean I don't think that he could have believed in some of what he was doing. It was all mostly self serving.
Yes, everybody who studies Joseph Smith more than just a little knows of his infamous moments when he bragged in front of crowds. Bragging, loving attention, has not the slightest impact on whether or not a person knows s/he is a fraud. What exactly did Joseph Smith believe was fraudulent that he asserted about himself?
I think it is a good indicator.
He was making an Egyptian grammar. He was learning Greek and German and Hebrew. He took a hubristic stab at the Psalter. How, in the lifetime of his generation, was the story of Zelph debunked? Has it been thoroughly debunked even now? Or is it just too specific to be anything more than funny? I think that "Zelph" falls into one of those remembrances of Joseph Smith that add color and no content. At the time, he might have been spinning a yarn to keep the hardships of Zion's Camp from unmanning his friends, and later those he yarned took it too seriously. That would be a weakness in Joseph Smith, and he had as many or more as other men.
What evidence do you have that it is real? Since we know the Book of Mormon is fiction it also means this story is also fiction created by the same man. Zelph is brought up for those who want to defend the Book of Mormon with the LGT in Meso America. Joseph clearly had a different area in mind, and it was not very limited.
How do you "test" texts that come metaphysically to someone? What parts did he know were made up? The "wisdom literature" is the most beneficial, useful part of the Old Testament, imho. The stories convey readily to the story-loving mind. But the factual assertions, the historicity, of any scriptures, are not shown by physical evidence, except in the most tenuous or even misapplied selective use of that growing body of evidence.
Go to sites like Mormon think. They cover many of the things we look at in the text and claimes made by not just the text, but by people like Joseph claiming God has said about it.
That's the beauty of religious faith: ditto for faith in unbelief. There will never arrive a point in time where we actually KNOW of a certain about anything. That's because we are finite, with all the limitations that finiteness implies.
I notice you put certain after know. that's fine beucase it shows that the use of know is fine if you have enough evidence to know, and that it is not meant to be an absolute.
"God" will always be infinitely beyond us.
Why do you make comments about our limitations in knowing and then make statements that come across as absolute. You cannot have it both ways.
Joseph Smith's religion needs evolving, not discarding.
I agree that evolution of the LDS religion would be a good thing, but it would mean the end of most of what Joseph made up. I see this has happening slowly. To slow for many, but at a speed that may be more easy to absorb for many. Discarding it can also work. It's not like it is providing anything good that is unique to it.