How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

[_Uncle Ed]

...

Do you think Lehi was a real person who with his family migrated to the Americas around 600 BC?

I highly doubt it. But his legendary memory might have inspired a work of "historic fiction" with a religious point, created to be a real exegesis of why/how the "Nephites" (whatever their real "Olmec" or "Mayan" self-applied "national" title might have been) were in the fix they were in, facing virtual extinction in a protracted civil war....

[_Uncle Ed]

...


"Depthful"-- my new favorite word.


I think that our grammatical proclivities reveal more about us than we'd like.

Yes, I am a Mormon hick. But I also have enough 'puter savvy to see when I am spelling something that does not exist. I like the word too....

[_Chap]

...

Do you think Lehi was a real person who with his family migrated to the Americas around 600 BC?

I highly doubt it. But his legendary memory might have inspired a work of "historic fiction" with a religious point, created to be a real exegesis of why/how the "Nephites" (whatever their real "Olmec" or "Mayan" self-applied "national" title might have been) were in the fix they were in, facing virtual extinction in a protracted civil war....

What legendary memory? Before Joseph Smith there was nothing.

Lehi was a wholly fictional character created by the 19th C. author of the Book of Mormon, together with many others. We are talking fantasy fiction here, hardly historic fiction.

[_Uncle Ed]

...

No.

I guess that means you don't carry a valid temple recommend.
(Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?)

It's expired at the moment. But yes, I have answered that question and received a recommend. I said, "Yes, as far as the Church is concerned. But there is a lot more going on than just the LDS Church, on just this planet alone, not to mention the implications of the whole universe". I got the recommend, because the other questions added up to "no threat, minding his own business and living as a member in good standing". The last question is the clincher....

[_Uncle Ed]

...

Do you think Lehi was a real person who with his family migrated to the Americas around 600 BC?

Uncle Ed (me): I highly doubt it. But his legendary memory might have inspired a work of "historic fiction" with a religious point, created to be a real exegesis of why/how the "Nephites" (whatever their real "Olmec" or "Mayan" self-applied "national" title might have been) were in the fix they were in, facing virtual extinction in a protracted civil war....

What legendary memory? Before Joseph Smith there was nothing.

Lehi was a wholly fictional character created by the 19th C. author of the Book of Mormon, together with many others. We are talking fantasy fiction here, hardly historic fiction.

I was playing the infernal advocate, allowing the kernel of a possibility that Joseph Smith's inspiration has a historic basis, without fitting into the Church's exegesis on what the Book of Mormon literally is, i.e. not fitting into any known empirical evidence for "Nephites". "Lehi" would then become some legendary or even mythic creation of "Mormon's" for his own purposes. The entire "Christ" contents would be piggy-backed to it through Joseph Smith's need to validate the Bible and his religious calling. The plot and setting of "Lehites in America" could be used by anyone if piggy-backed to their religious paradigm. God knows all and remains inscrutable....

[_Themis]

I highly doubt it. But his legendary memory might have inspired a work of "historic fiction" with a religious point, created to be a real exegesis of why/how the "Nephites" (whatever their real "Olmec" or "Mayan" self-applied "national" title might have been) were in the fix they were in, facing virtual extinction in a protracted civil war....

I am not sure if you think the Nephites were Mayans, but I will assume not. So if Lehi is fictional does this not mean the gold plates are also fictional in that they never did really exist except maybe as a prop created by Joseph and company? Also since you say the priesthood was never restored, does this also not mean Joseph and Oliver lied about these two events? Peter Whitmer seemed to think so in regards to the Melchizedek priesthood restoration event that was claimed by them.

[_Uncle Ed]

I highly doubt it. But his legendary memory might have inspired a work of "historic fiction" with a religious point, created to be a real exegesis of why/how the "Nephites" (whatever their real "Olmec" or "Mayan" self-applied "national" title might have been) were in the fix they were in, facing virtual extinction in a protracted civil war....

I am not sure if you think the Nephites were Mayans, but I will assume not. So if Lehi is fictional does this not mean the gold plates are also fictional in that they never did really exist except maybe as a prop created by Joseph and company? Also since you say the priesthood was never restored, does this also not mean Joseph and Oliver lied about these two events? Peter Whitmer seemed to think so in regards to the Melchizedek priesthood restoration event that was claimed by them.

I believe that they believed what they asserted. And metaphysical "gold plates" and angels are not part of the waking or empirical world. The information derived from the metaphysical is often mysterious and profound....

[_Themis]

I believe that they believed what they asserted. And metaphysical "gold plates" and angels are not part of the waking or empirical world. The information derived from the metaphysical is often mysterious and profound....

All the historical evidence points to claims of the gold plates by Joseph as being physical. Do you have any that does not support this? Maybe as well for Joseph assertions about Peter James and John or even Moroni. I still fail to see how Joesph could not be lying without having some mental problems.

[_Uncle Ed]

I believe that they believed what they asserted. And metaphysical "gold plates" and angels are not part of the waking or empirical world. The information derived from the metaphysical is often mysterious and profound....

All the historical evidence points to claims of the gold plates by Joseph as being physical. Do you have any that does not support this? Maybe as well for Joseph assertions about Peter James and John or even Moroni. I still fail to see how Joesph could not be lying without having some mental problems.

There is the Kirtland temple vision experience shared with only Oliver Cowdery, while on the other side of the curtain the congregation of c. a thousand saw and heard nothing. We have a voice "like the rushing of many waters" and "his countenance was like lightning", yet a simple drapery is sufficient to obscure all sight and sound from the multitude. We have Joseph Smith waking up on his back gazing into heaven following the first vision. We have Martin Harris in Kirtland later on explaining that he saw the "plates and angel" with his "spiritual eyes", thus causing the furor that ended up driving Warren Parrish and his group out of the church and into physical possession of the temple, and Joseph Smith fleeing for his life.

It seems obvious to me that metaphysical is "where" the visionary experiences take place, not the empirical world - even the "eight witnesses" handled in the broad light of a metaphysical day. When, on more than one occasion, the side of the hill opened, admitting Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery into the chamber where the table stood, in the midst of the historical records piled high against the walls, holding the plates and other artifacts, this experience was purely metaphysical: sides of hills do not "open" in that manner in the empirical world ((Journal of Discourses 19:38).

There is no lying going on that can be shown, only differing perceptions. There were "gold plates" but they were only seen by others when they entered that metaphysical "realm" with Joseph Smith, i.e. "in vision"....

[_Themis]

There is the Kirtland temple vision experience shared with only Oliver Cowdery, while on the other side of the curtain the congregation of c. a thousand saw and heard nothing. We have a voice "like the rushing of many waters" and "his countenance was like lightning", yet a simple drapery is sufficient to obscure all sight and sound from the multitude. We have Joseph Smith waking up on his back gazing into heaven following the first vision. We have Martin Harris in Kirtland later on explaining that he saw the "plates and angel" with his "spiritual eyes", thus causing the furor that ended up driving Warren Parrish and his group out of the church and into physical possession of the temple, and Joseph Smith fleeing for his life.

It seems obvious to me that metaphysical is "where" the visionary experiences take place, not the empirical world - even the "eight witnesses" handled in the broad light of a metaphysical day. When, on more than one occasion, the side of the hill opened, admitting Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery into the chamber where the table stood, in the midst of the historical records piled high against the walls, holding the plates and other artifacts, this experience was purely metaphysical: sides of hills do not "open" in that manner in the empirical world ((Journal of Discourses 19:38).

There is no lying going on that can be shown, only differing perceptions. There were "gold plates" but they were only seen by others when they entered that metaphysical "realm" with Joseph Smith, i.e. "in vision"....

I think Joseph did try to coach these experiences in the metaphysical/spiritual. There is plenty of evidence showing this. It doesn't lessen the evidence Joseph was also trying to say he had physical plates. The whole point of the 8 witnesses was not to convince them so much as it was to convince his other followers and potential followers that he had real plates. I can't remember who( I think it might have been Joseph's brother William) that says they were uncomfortable with Joseph's witness statement for the 8. There is also plenty of evidence he had at least a prop covered by cloth. Emma says she touched them covered. This evidence says that if he didn't really have ancient plates then he is lying about it or has to be majorly deluding himself that he is being honest with others about it. I doubt he was that deluded and knew he was lying, just as he knew he was lying about polygamy. Pious frauds tend to justify there lies as we know Joseph did. Lying for the Lord.