Equality wrote:"Polished steel" does not appear in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith was smart enough to know that ancient Americans did not have the ability to smelt steel, so he never would have made the mistake of putting steel into the Book of Mormon. :-)
But "polished shaft" appears in 1 Nephi 21:2.
Ah...I stand corrected!
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Well I'll be jiggered, it really does say polished shaft!
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
AlmaBound wrote:Paul, I had forgotten Cowdery was a schoolteacher. Wonder if he had this book?
Don't know if there is anyway to verify that. Perhaps in his journals, letters, and writings there is some mention of this book. That would require some serious research just to answer a single question. But, nonetheless, it seems it's an important question at hand.
My guess is he knew the story quite well. Books back then were a valuable thing to have and there weren't nearly so many as the choices we have today. It's a good bet Oliver knew about it.
Kishkumen wrote:Personally I thought the reference to the mammoth was cool.
Cureloms and cumoms?
It's interesting that elephants are mentioned at all. What are the chances that elephants are mentioned in a story? How many books mention elephants? It all goes back to the weight of evidence and tallying up the facts.
I think this makes a connection between our suspect source and the Book of Mormon. The elephant link is an eye opener to say the least. And the cureloms and cumoms are just names made up by the translator Joseph Smith just like he made up the fake Egyptian names of Shulem and Olimla. Science has positively disproved his translations of the Facismile in question. It's black and white -- open and shut case for proving Joe Smith a fraud.
AlmaBound wrote:An aside, but curious - Why does Hunt continually use the term Sanhedrim?
I wonder if it was to add religious legitimacy and gravitas to the youthful American government (the book was written only a year after the War of 1812 ended after all and who was to say Britain wouldn't give it another go in a couple years?).
Also perhaps a touch of the 2nd Great Awakening by a writer draping American history in Christian language (that would never happen right?) and divine rightness and purpose.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07
MASH quotes I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it. I avoid church religiously. This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
So a little more on Everybody Wang Chung's freemen. I'm anticipating the "textual layer" problem as I understand the apologist mindset very well. So, the "Late War" clearly is not only mimicking the style of the Bible, but wresting it into tropes that tell the story of the revolution in terms of transparent heroes and villains. Hunt finds the obvious parallels but makes them more than they are in his exploitation. In the Bible, recall in 1 Samuel that the people desired a king. The obvious counter to the "Late War" theory is that the Bible is a common source for both books. As Paxton said, why do we need the "Late War" when we have the Bible? This works for both skeptics like Paxton and apologists who believe that the Lord operates in "types" and that we'd expect the Book of Mormon to recast familiar themes from the Bible just as the New Testament recasts material from the Old Testament.
In the Bible story of Israel desiring a king, the people in general wanted a king to be like other nations. Samuel prays to the Lord, the Lord explains why it's a bad idea, but the people are persistent, and so the Lord eventually gives them what they want. For Hunt, the Old Testament is recast into a story of political factions where evil men use flattery to deceive good people opportunistically, in a plot to take away liberty and many are deceived. What's striking is that the Book of Mormon borrows this recasting to the letter.
I mean, this is unreal. No wonder Skousen gained such a following. The Book of Mormon is the story of the revolution told with exaggerated piety.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
I also see "Zebulon" on p. 69. Isn't that a Book of Mormon name? And on pg. 71 it gives (not the only place by any means) a detailed specific number of slain on both sides in a manner very similar to the way the Book of Mormon chronicles the casualties of war......
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
Spanner wrote:After a wee look,I have found a few more parallels not in the KJV...
"fair daughters": 3 x in Book of Mormon 4 x in Late War (e.g. Chap LIV verse 35) not in KJV
"encompassed ...about" 3 x in Book of Mormon 3 (at least) in Late War (e.g. Chap XXV verse 9) not in KJV ("encompasseth" appears in both Late War and the D&C, not the KJV)
"cause of liberty" Alma 51:17 2 x (at least) in Late War (e.g. Chap XXIV verse 15)
"brave men" 3 Nephi 3:3 Many times in Late War ("brave" and "brave men" not in KJV at all)
"fled in confusion" 3 x in Late War (e.g. Chap LIV verse 21) "fled in much confusion" Alma 52:28 Not in KJV
This at least reflects 19th century phrasing in the Book of Mormon that doesn't derive from Hebrew or the KJV.
Great job!
Wow, more evidence to break the back of the Book of Mormon. It just keeps stacking up. The weight of evidence is getting heavier! This has become a party!
Philo Sofee wrote:I also see "Zebulon" on p. 69. Isn't that a Book of Mormon name? And on pg. 71 it gives (not the only place by any means) a detailed specific number of slain on both sides in a manner very similar to the way the Book of Mormon chronicles the casualties of war......
Noticed that too. I was looking for a "strategem" too, and the Zebulon bit was close.
Philo Sofee wrote:I also see "Zebulon" on p. 69. Isn't that a Book of Mormon name? And on pg. 71 it gives (not the only place by any means) a detailed specific number of slain on both sides in a manner very similar to the way the Book of Mormon chronicles the casualties of war......
Zebulon is biblical. One of the 12 sons of Jacob. I know this because of a song Andrew Lloyd Webber once wrote. No smoking gun there.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Although, I think one would be hard pressed to say that the terms, "freemen", "stripling", "fine workmanship", "curious workmanship", etc. don't border on plagiarism.
I don't know. When I type "curious workmanship" into a Google Books search there are more than 30 pages of hits just for the period between 1800 and 1825. I think it's safe to say that that expression was "in the air" when Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon.
How many Google hits from the period of 600 BC to 424 AD (other than in-the-tank Mormon sites)?
