Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_Maksutov]

I run deer down, wrestle them to the ground, and bite their throats out.

Each to his own.

My kinda guy.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

Hey Phaedrus!

In all seriousness this text will be devastating to the average person because the similarities are so obvious.

This will be devastating to the average person?
Do you really think so? (To be clear, this is a serious question)
Perhaps I am wrong but I think the impact it will have will be exactly zero (or very near zero) to the great, great majority.
Not singling you out for an argument, Phaedrus, just randomly chose your post in hope of further discussion along this line.
Peace,
Ceeboo

I think it's the accessibility of the comparisons that make this unique. I've read nearly every think published in the past 2 years concerning the Book of Mormon from a academic, apologetic, and critical standpoint. I've been participating in online forums like this since the early days of ZLMB in the 90's. This to me is one of the most unique items I've read that pertains to the composition of the Book of Mormon.

We can see what a author living in the same area of the America as Joseph, Cowdery, Rigdon, Spaulding would produce when writing in a pseudo biblical style with a 19th century bias of American exceptionalism.


Phaedrus

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Fence!

Ceeboo,

I am not sure I would use the word devastating and I'll have to actually read Hunt's book to get a better sense of its actual impact, but many Mormons I know believe very strongly that Joseph Smith could not have created the Book of Mormon on his own. Its an argument you hear frequently from the believer. If Hunt's book is even close to the endeavor of the Book of Mormon it will be an easy example to bring up as a counter to the "how could he have done it by himself" defense. That was one of the reasons I posted above the same question about Hunt's book. One would have to be a member to understand the joke. As missionaries we encouraged prospective converts to ponder the Book of Mormon and ask themselves if it were possible that a man by himself could have written this book.

Yes, I understand what you're saying (I think? Or at least the best I can understand being a never-Mo)

But, given all I have seen/read/heard in my enjoyable journey into Mormonism over the last few years, I am very confident that this (or anything else for that matter) will have zero impact on the great majority.

Although I do leave the required room to be proven wrong..... I don't think I am!

Anyway, thank for engaging!

Peace,
Ceeboo

[Guest]

here's another example of early 19th century faux-biblical writing, from a Federalist periodical published in New York.

The Weekly Inspector, Feb 14, 1807, vol.1 no.25, p.284
- NOW it came to pass when Thomas the Mountainite was in the sixth year of his reign, that the Yorkites which dwell in the great City near the sea side, lifted up their voice, with one accord, saying,
- Behold, our City containeth much people and treasure and also divers works of curious workmanship in gold, and in silver, and in brass, and in iron;
- And there be in our City divers ragamuffins, both of our own country and of others, which have been blowed hither by the four winds of heaven.
- And among all the nations of the earth there are wars, and rumours of wars. And plunder and desolation follow the steps of the conqueror, and destruction burneth under his feet. And the age of the world is changed.
- And Thomas the king hath said that the treasury overfloweth with money, even as the Nile overfloweth its banks: insomuch that he knoweth not what to do therewith, and talketh of making roads and opening canals. For Thomas was an exceeding great talker from the beginning.
- Then certain of the Yorkites cried out, O, King, live for ever! for he had talked that which tickled them amazingly. So the king continued to lead them, even as sheep are led to the slaughter.
- Then certain of the Yorkites, of the sect of the Federalites, assembled themselves together, and they prepared a petition, and sent it to the elders of the people, saying,
- Forasmuch as ye have money in plenty, even as sand upon the sea shore, and seeing how great a portion thereof cometh from this our City, grant us somewhat of our own money to fortify it;
- Lest an enemy come like a thief in the night, and destroy us;
- Leading our sons captive, and their fathers into captivity, ravishing our wives and our daughters, and desolating our City, and leaving not one stone upon another.
- Hear us, in mercy, and carry our prayers before the King.
- Moreover, ye shall tell him, that inasmuch as he loveth exceedingly to speechify concerning the great riches which are gathered into the treasury, it behoveth him to make strong the City from whence so great treasure cometh; lest, peradventure, if the City fall, his speeches may be crippled exceedingly.
- Now Tom the Brandyite, the same which hath the red nose, who fed in the pantry of the King, and slept in his bosom, was exceeding wroth.
[...]

and it continues like that for a couple of pages. Hebraisms abound.

[_Equality]

We can see what a author living in the same area of the America as Joseph, Cowdery, Rigdon, Spaulding would produce when writing in a pseudo biblical style with a 19th century bias of American exceptionalism.

Precisely. For those who may have missed the link in this massive thread to Rick Grunder's site, I post it again. It is really a jaw-dropping read. I was always, even when I jumped ship to the critics' side, skepitcal of the View of the Hebrews parallels and the Spalding parallels. This one, though, blows those out of the water.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, Phaedrus

I think it's the accessibility of the comparisons that make this unique. I've read nearly every think published in the past 2 years concerning the Book of Mormon from a academic, apologetic, and critical standpoint. I've been participating in online forums like this since the early days of ZLMB in the 90's. This to me is one of the most unique items I've read that pertains to the composition of the Book of Mormon.

We can see what a author living in the same area of the America as Joseph, Cowdery, Rigdon, Spaulding would produce when writing in a pseudo biblical style with a 19th century bias of American exceptionalism.


Phaedrus

Thanks for the reply!

Perhaps I am wrong? (Still don't think I am though)


(ZMLB in the 90's? Good Lord, you must be ancient!)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[Guest]

Worse still, since they were not allowed to build fires on the barges, they would not have been able to make repairs with heated softened pitch or bitumen when the seals between the hull planks failed.

Also considering the amount of time they were adrift, it could be said they were in no sense cracking on like smoke and oakum.

Where in the world did you pick up the phrase "cracking on like smoke and oakum"?

(The expression is actually smoke'n oakum, I believe.)

Anyway, pretty arcane stuff. Do you happen to remember in what context you heard or read this old wooden sailing ship expression?

[_palerobber]

nevermind.

[_DrW]

I think there are other things that resemble the language of Book of Mormon much better than Hunt's book. That would be the Book of Abraham, the D&C, and Joseph's language in the JST. So in my opinion this text is running a distant 4th place in texts with similar language to the Book of Mormon.

I think that's a fairly accurate assessment. Here is a scatter plot visualization of our results:



We have 2 "The late war" entries in there because we cleaned up some of the OCR errors in one and wanted to see how much impact these were having on matches.

Agreed. Great Graphic. Thanks for posting this.

[Guest]

Perhaps I am wrong but I think the impact it will have will be exactly zero (or very near zero) to the great, great majority.

I agree. The Book of Abraham is probably the single most obvious fraud in Mormonism. We have pieces of the source document. We have the Egyptian alphabet and grammar. The facsimiles and Joseph's explanations. It's a slam dunk case. It's all over the Internet, yet apologists have no problems coming up with crazy theories and TBMs don't care anyway. If something that obvious has no impact on TBMs, this Hunt book won't either.

I think as critics we expect too much when new evidence against the church pops up. The LDS church has always been considered a fraud by the vast majority. Most people saw through Joseph Smith from the very beginning. Those who know it's a fraud never joined or have already left, for the most part. It will always be around, and there will always be a small number of people who buy it. For those who want to see the church disproved, it's not going to happen because it has never been proved in the court of public opinion. Mormons are not a part of the world dialog and never have been. How many people believe in Bigfoot or UFOs? Probably more than .02% of the population.