Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_Runtu]

Yeah, but these are more closely related to Pumas, Cheetahs etc. The 'lion' was the fiercest, the king so to speak, pumas, cougars aren't in the same league?
It may be nothing, just something that struck me.

In a North American context, mountain lions are pretty much it, so they would be the fiercest, the king, as you put it.

Sorry, was just trying to think like an apologist for a minute.

Perhaps the eagle is left out because the writer thought it would be too obvious a reference to the modern USA.

[_Shulem]

That they both use 'lion' isn't particularly strange since the Bible is full of figurative language around the subject.
What strikes me about this is that there were actually no lions in the Americas at any time during the Book of Mormon period.
So for Joseph to have used lions figuratively is anachronistic in my opinion. It makes no sense for him to have used them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have spoken to the Nephites about Lions, since they wouldn’t have been familiar with them, and it makes no sense for Mormon to have used them since he wouldn’t have known about them either. (Or am I wrong?)

It does make sense if Joseph was being influenced by the Bible and Wars. Interestingly, Joseph doesn’t use ‘eagle’ (as does Hunt and the Bible) which wouldn’t have been anachronistic in a Book of Mormon setting.

Wow, just wow! Lions, elephants, 2000 warriors, and the list goes on and on.

It's an indictment! What are the odds that the Book of Mormon could be a true history based on all the facts that point to fraud, ie., plagiarism, KJV errors, fairytales, anachronisms, etc?

I think this pretty much sums it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNXEs2JFe-Y

Paul O

[_Phaedrus Ut]

In anticipation of the coming response to the similarities between The Late War and the Book of Mormon I'd like to offer my anticipated apologetic responses.

• Except for a few words I don't see any similarities at all.
• This confirms what we were already saying. Because Joseph was translator his mind influenced the words he used and of course it will look similar to someone writing in the same style.
• This would have to be another book added to the Palmyra Library that Joseph "supposedly" used to create the amazingly rich and ancient Book of Mormon.
• Parallels aren't evidence of anything.
• If you search 100,000 books for a match of course you'll eventually find one similar to the Book of Mormon. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will eventually write Mosiah.
• The Late War wasn't written in 60 days showing how impossible it would have been for Joseph to write the Book of Mormon
• I am unaffected by this because I believe in a loose translation of the text.

Phaedrus

[Guest]

I don't have time to go through all of the comments, but I just wanted to point out that a quick google books search shows that the language used in the Book of Mormon is far more common than those pushing the Late War thesis seem to realize.

For example: "curious workmanship."

"fine workmanship"

"all manner of cattle"

The same can pretty much done with every "SMOKING GUN!" phrase.

More telling than the occasional shared common phrases between the Book of Mormon and LW is how little so much of the regular language of the LW appears in the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith really pulled from the LW, we would certainly expect to see much more of LW's themes and language to appear in the Book of Mormon. Sheesh, most of the LW involves naval battle--none of which occurs in the Book of Mormon. Do search of "fleet" "ship" and "ships" in LW. Those terms are spread throughout the whole book, but "fleet" never appears in the Book of Mormon and "ship/ships/shipping" only occurs twice outside of Nephi (Alma 63 and Helaman 3)

[_the narrator]

Better yet, do a search in LW for "score."

Then do a search in the Book of Mormon.

[_Tobin]

In anticipation of the coming response to the similarities between The Late War and the Book of Mormon I'd like to offer my anticipated apologetic responses.

• Except for a few words I don't see any similarities at all.
• This confirms what we were already saying. Because Joseph was translator his mind influenced the words he used and of course it will look similar to someone writing in the same style.
• This would have to be another book added to the Palmyra Library that Joseph "supposedly" used to create the amazingly rich and ancient Book of Mormon.
• Parallels aren't evidence of anything.
• If you search 100,000 books for a match of course you'll eventually find one similar to the Book of Mormon. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will eventually write Mosiah.
• The Late War wasn't written in 60 days showing how impossible it would have been for Joseph to write the Book of Mormon
• I am unaffected by this because I believe in a loose translation of the text.

Phaedrus

As I've said before in this thread, it all comes down to your base assumptions here. Those that are swayed by the view that Joseph Smith made it all up and more importantly, there were no Gold Plates, are going to leap at any parallels since they are keen on evidence that support their assumption that Joseph Smith made it all up and copied from elsewhere. However, as I pointed out, if you believe that there really were Gold Plates that were translated, finding parallels and other writing similar to the period in which the Book of Mormon was translated is not likely to hold much weight with you.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

As I've said before in this thread, it all comes down to your base assumptions here. Those that are swayed by the view that Joseph Smith made it all up and more importantly, there were no Gold Plates, are going to leap at any parallels since they are keen on evidence that support their assumption that Joseph Smith made it all up and copied from elsewhere. However, as I pointed out, if you believe that there really were Gold Plates that were translated, finding parallels and other writing similar to the period in which the Book of Mormon was translated is not likely to hold much weight with you.

If your world view includes angels that deliver golden plates with magic rocks that translate ancient Egyptian then theoretically anything is possible. If your world view doesn't include such magical thinking then you logically assume non-supernatural methods of composition.


Phaedrus

[_Nevo]

What strikes me about this is that there were actually no lions in the Americas at any time during the Book of Mormon period. So for Joseph to have used lions figuratively is anachronistic in my opinion. It makes no sense for him to have used them, it makes no sense for Jesus to have spoken to the Nephites about Lions, since they wouldn’t have been familiar with them, and it makes no sense for Mormon to have used them since he wouldn’t have known about them either.

Hi Mary,

You may already be aware of this, but three of your references from the Book of Mormon are quoting or paraphrasing Micah 5:8 (3 Ne. 20:16; 21:12; and Morm. 5:24) and a fourth is quoting Isaiah 5:29 (2 Ne.15:29).

That leaves two "anachronistic" references. And Runtu already anticipated the apologetic response. Brant Gardner comments as follows, regarding Mosiah 20:10: "What we probably have in this case is Joseph substituting a known animal (out of place) for an animal which was also a big cat. In other words, the underlying text would have been 'jaguar' but the translation would be 'lion.'"

The KJV translators did exactly the same sort of thing. See Isaiah 34:13, for example:

"And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls."

The NRSV provides a more accurate translation:

"Thorns shall grow over its strongholds, nettles and thistles in its fortresses. It shall be the haunt of jackals, an abode for ostriches."

[_Runtu]

In anticipation of the coming response to the similarities between The Late War and the Book of Mormon I'd like to offer my anticipated apologetic responses.

• Except for a few words I don't see any similarities at all.
• This confirms what we were already saying. Because Joseph was translator his mind influenced the words he used and of course it will look similar to someone writing in the same style.
• This would have to be another book added to the Palmyra Library that Joseph "supposedly" used to create the amazingly rich and ancient Book of Mormon.
• Parallels aren't evidence of anything.
• If you search 100,000 books for a match of course you'll eventually find one similar to the Book of Mormon. A monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will eventually write Mosiah.
• The Late War wasn't written in 60 days showing how impossible it would have been for Joseph to write the Book of Mormon
• I am unaffected by this because I believe in a loose translation of the text.

Phaedrus

All of the above have been expressed elsewhere. That some people are seeing this as a major attack tells me more about those people than it does about either the Hunt book or the Book of Mormon.

[Guest]

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