Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

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_Chap
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Chap »

Then we have, just after Wade:

Maklekan wrote:What I think this book can show us is the KJV-influenced vernacular that had currency during Smith's day. A lot of the terminology shared by both books can be found in other publications from the same time period, although this book appears to have the highest concentration of non-KJV linguistic overlap. The Late War very well may have been read by Smith and/or Cowdery growing up (it became marketed as a textbook for children), or even around the time of the rendering of the Book of Mormon. They may have even made a conscious decision to pattern the flavor of the Book of Mormon language after this book. At this point, however, I don't see the relationship being much deeper than that.

What are the implications of this conclusion? It means, in my opinion, that the theory that the Book of Mormon was revealed letter-by-letter to Joseph Smith is significantly undermined, unless, of course, one wants to assert a very, very tight brand of accommodationism (God so adapted the language of his revelation to Smith's own culture, worldview, and personal lenses that he exactly mimicked the very kinds of phraseology he would have come up with). That begs the question in my opinion.


Um ... all those early witnesses who said that the translation was delivered word by word? (As recounted by an apostle in the Ensign too). How were they 'undermined'?

We wouldn't like to have to admit that a bunch of people so close to Joseph Smith were incapable of bearing witness on a matter intimately connected with the Book of Mormon, now would we?

I continue to be amazed by the evidence that Mormons feel that there is something special in the ability to write in fake KJV English, in a 'biblical' style. Anyone brought up in a church where the KJV is frequently read could do that to some degree or other, with all the 'Hebraisms' you might want.

Sometimes I wonder whether Mormons read the Bible much.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_robuchan
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _robuchan »

cognitiveharmony wrote:
Tobin wrote:
They use many examples of events that can be expected to be random such as birthdays, deaths, historical events etc. They then proceed to analyze the Book of Mormon with the same expectation of randomness. This is a reasonable and rational expectation. There is no demonstrable reason for us not to expect the dates in the Book of Mormon to be random if it is in fact a historical text. The analysis simply proves that the chance of the dates in the Book of Mormon being actually random rather than made up is 1 in 2000. I would now ask you to either acknowledge this fact or present an argument that at least challenges the actual premise of the analysis.

Just a hint for you. What makes a birthday and a historical event in this context both apples, is the expectation of randomness. That's why it was such a good example in the analysis.


What's the example of the date that occurred on the first month, first day?
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Chap wrote:Um ... all those early witnesses who said that the translation was delivered word by word? (As recounted by an apostle in the Ensign too). How were they 'undermined'?

We wouldn't like to have to admit that a bunch of people so close to Joseph Smith were incapable of bearing witness on a matter intimately connected with the Book of Mormon, now would we?

I continue to be amazed by the evidence that Mormons feel that there is something special in the ability to write in fake KJV English, in a 'biblical' style. Anyone brought up in a church where the KJV is frequently read could do that to some degree or other, with all the 'Hebraisms' you might want.

Sometimes I wonder whether Mormons read the Bible much.


How many of those witnesses to the translation were also part of the 11 witnesses? O.C. and some of the Whitmers too?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_palerobber
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _palerobber »

Darth J wrote: So what does the cognate accusative look like?


Ch. VIII, pp. 50

21. And the great Sanhedrim honored Isaac with great honor, [...]
_Runtu
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Runtu »

Fence Sitter wrote:How many of those witnesses to the translation were also part of the 11 witnesses? O.C. and some of the Whitmers too?


There's an out: Joseph Smith never directly said how the translation was done. We have only secondhand testimony.

Today's quiz: which of the 8 witnesses were not part of the Whitmer or Smith families?
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Ceeboo
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Ceeboo »

Runtu wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:How many of those witnesses to the translation were also part of the 11 witnesses? O.C. and some of the Whitmers too?


There's an out: Joseph Smith never directly said how the translation was done. We have only secondhand testimony.

Today's quiz: which of the 8 witnesses were not part of the Whitmer or Smith families?


Hiram Page?
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Runtu wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:How many of those witnesses to the translation were also part of the 11 witnesses? O.C. and some of the Whitmers too?


There's an out: Joseph Smith never directly said how the translation was done. We have only secondhand testimony.

Today's quiz: which of the 8 witnesses were not part of the Whitmer or Smith families?


How is that an out?
Some of the witnesses (O.C. if I recall correctly) clearly stated word for word and the reading it back for confirmation that it is correct.

Answer is 0. The are all related.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Runtu
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Runtu »

Fence Sitter wrote:How is that an out?
Some of the witnesses (O.C. if I recall correctly) clearly stated word for word and the reading it back.


Yes, they said it was dictated word for word, but we don't know what Joseph actually saw in that stone. I know, flimsy, but I have heard it from apologists on several occasions.

Answer is 0. The are all related.


Yep, Hiram Page was married to a Whitmer sister.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Lunar Quaker
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Lunar Quaker »

Here are a couple of more books that are written in the same style.

The chronicle of the kings of England from William the Norman to the death of George III : written after the manner of the Jewish historians, by Robert Dodsley, published in 1821
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31175035150328;page=root;seq=1;view=1up;size=100;orient=0#view=1up;seq=1
p. 277 - " of curious workmanship. And there were also chamhers, which were called chambers of state, and, lo! they exceeded them all; for when the eye heheld them it was dazzled with their magnificence"


The chronicle of Abomilech, King of the Isles : translated from a Latin manuscript, written in the year 1220 by William of Salisbury, published in 1820
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433075905533#view=1up;seq=1
_palerobber
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _palerobber »

okay, one more category from Tvedtnes...

The Hebrew Background of the Book of Mormon, by John A. Tvedtnes

Adverbials

Hebrew has fewer adverbs than English. Instead, it often uses prepositional phrases with the preposition meaning in or with. The English translation of the Book of Mormon contains more of these prepositional phrases in place of adverbs than we would expect if the book had been written in English originally—another Hebraism. Here are some examples:
"with patience" instead of patiently (Mosiah 24:15)
"with much harshness" instead of very harshly (1 Nephi 18:11)
"with joy" instead of joyfully (Jacob 4:3)
"in spirit and in truth" instead of spiritually and truly (Alma 34:38)
"in righteousness" instead of righteously (1 Nephi 20:1)
"with gladness" instead of gladly (2 Nephi 28:28)


Ch. VII, p. 46
43. So William was ordered to depart to the land which lieth in the east, where he remaineth unto this day, and his name shall be no more spoken of with reverence amongst men.


Ch. VIII, p. 48
4. Now when Dacres beheld the ship of Columbia his eyes sparkled with joy, for he had defied the vessels of Columbia.


Ch. XIV, p. 75
21. Howsoever, the battle waxed hot, and they began to rush one upon another with great violence.


Ch. XIX, p. 101
20. And the men of Columbia rushed forward with fierceness, and drove the men of Britain from their strong hold.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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