Is hell enough as punishment?

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_Bazooka
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _Bazooka »

Gunnar wrote:
subgenius wrote:both of you have provided equal evidence of that "knowledge".
fact is...you were thinking of the number "4".
You saying otherwise is dishonest and an obvious ruse.
Either prove you were thinking of another number or concede.

I find it incredible that a presumably mature adult like yourself could possibly believe that there is anything clever or convincing about persisting in your absurd line of argument. Obviously TEA would be an infinitely more credible authority for what number he was thinking of than you would be. Your claim that he was thinking of the number 4, despite what TEA would claim to the contrary is absolutely worthless. Your trustworthiness, based on what I have seen of your behavior and comments on these forums is very close to zero!

The fact is that, unlike TEA, you have no way of knowing what number he was actually thinking of, unless he tells you. For you to claim otherwise is a blatant lie, and you know that as well as I do. This line of argument of yours is nothing but one of your typical, desperate attempts to obfuscate the real issue we are discussing here.


Subgenius demands a higher standard of proof from ,insert name of any poster with whom subgenus has interacted> than he requires of himself.
He claims to have correctly guessed the number that TEA was thinking of, yet can provide no evidence to substantiate that.
My conclusion, subgenius is full of spam.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_subgenius
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _subgenius »

Gunnar wrote:I find it incredible that a presumably mature adult like yourself could possibly believe that there is anything clever or convincing about persisting in your absurd line of argument. Obviously TEA would be an infinitely more credible authority for what number he was thinking of than you would be. Your claim that he was thinking of the number 4, despite what TEA would claim to the contrary is absolutely worthless. Your trustworthiness, based on what I have seen of your behavior and comments on these forums is very close to zero!

The fact is that, unlike TEA, you have no way of knowing what number he was actually thinking of, unless he tells you. For you to claim otherwise is a blatant lie, and you know that as well as I do. This line of argument of yours is nothing but one of your typical, desperate attempts to obfuscate the real issue we are discussing here.

of course you would "find it incredible"
Image
thanks for missing the point, but at least be comforted in the fact that it was expected from you.
Point is, TEA could be lying about the number "in mind" (obviously since it was, in fact, 4). Especially given the disposition TEA has towards myself...it is more likely that TEA would be dishonest, insincere, etc..due to a expressed lack of respect or concern for myself.
That being said, the point is that like many of the "challenges" TEA imposes and insists upon others TEA is unwilling and unable to meet that same standard when applied to TEA's own assertions.
Either TEA can provide evidence for what TEA claims is true or TEA can simply concede TEA's position as a mere TEA-apologist.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _subgenius »

Bazooka wrote:Subgenius demands a higher standard of proof from ,insert name of any poster with whom subgenus has interacted> than he requires of himself.
He claims to have correctly guessed the number that TEA was thinking of, yet can provide no evidence to substantiate that.
My conclusion, subgenius is full of spam.

not higher....just equal...in most cases i just need to "quote" a posters demand back to them in order to neuter their little barking dog. If you trace this thread, or any other that TEA routinely posts upon, you will find little, if at all, difference between my demand for evidence and TEA's...or yours for that matter.
This tactic, or requiring from you what you require from others, usually exposes the hypocrisy as it becomes expressed by the poster, and the poster's posse, by attacking the messenger instead of the message.....due to legs being cut out form under them, they have little else to stand upon.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_LittleNipper
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _LittleNipper »

Bazooka wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Truth never changes.


What?

Back in days of yore people would have said the truth about the earth is that it is flat.
That truth changed.
You may well reply, saying that the truth was that the earth was always round and what people thought was the truth wasn't really the truth - but you can see where we will go with that train of thought can't you....

Well, the Bible never explained to anyone that the world was "flat." That is what people may perceive when they only except portions of the Bible but do not accept it all... There are always those who jump to conclusions based on what others believe but not what the Bible says.
_Themis
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _Themis »

Gunnar wrote:
subgenius wrote:both of you have provided equal evidence of that "knowledge".
fact is...you were thinking of the number "4".
You saying otherwise is dishonest and an obvious ruse.
Either prove you were thinking of another number or concede.

I find it incredible that a presumably mature adult like yourself could possibly believe that there is anything clever or convincing about persisting in your absurd line of argument. Obviously TEA would be an infinitely more credible authority for what number he was thinking of than you would be. Your claim that he was thinking of the number 4, despite what TEA would claim to the contrary is absolutely worthless. Your trustworthiness, based on what I have seen of your behavior and comments on these forums is very close to zero!

The fact is that, unlike TEA, you have no way of knowing what number he was actually thinking of, unless he tells you. For you to claim otherwise is a blatant lie, and you know that as well as I do. This line of argument of yours is nothing but one of your typical, desperate attempts to obfuscate the real issue we are discussing here.


Subby acts like a child here all the time. He asked for evidence of what the number he was thinking of, which TEA provided. His statement that the number he was thinking of is number 4 is evidence of that. One of so many things subby demonstrates he does not understand. Sure he could be lying. If we wanted to eliminate this possibility then they could get together in person and he could write the number down and put it into an envelope on a table in front of both of them.
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_The Erotic Apologist
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

LittleNipper wrote:Well, the Bible never explained to anyone that the world was "flat." That is what people may perceive when they only except portions of the Bible but do not accept it all... There are always those who jump to conclusions based on what others believe but not what the Bible says.

Can I interpret this to mean that if I accept "all" of the Bible that I will then possess sufficient data to conclude the Earth is round and not flat?

Exactly where does the Bible discuss the general shape of the Earth?
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I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess.
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_ludwigm
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _ludwigm »

The Erotic Apologist wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Well, the Bible never explained to anyone that the world was "flat." That is what people may perceive when they only except portions of the Bible but do not accept it all... There are always those who jump to conclusions based on what others believe but not what the Bible says.

Can I interpret this to mean that if I accept "all" of the Bible that I will then be able to conclude the Earth is round and not flat?

Exactly where does the Bible discuss the general shape of the Earth?


Matthew 4:8 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_LittleNipper
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _LittleNipper »

The Earth Is Round

The earth

The Bible indicates that the earth is round. Consider Isaiah 40:22 which mentions the “circle of the earth.” This description is certainly fitting—particularly when the earth is viewed from space; the earth always appears as a circle since it is round.

Another verse that indicates the spherical nature of our planet is Job 26:10. This verse teaches that God has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness. This boundary between light and darkness (day and night) is called the “terminator” since the light stops or “terminates” there. Someone standing on the terminator would be experiencing either a sunrise or a sunset; they are going from day to night or from night to day. The terminator is always a circle, because the earth is round.

One of the great delights of observing the moon through a small telescope is to look at its terminator, especially during the first or third quarter phases when the terminator is directly down the middle of the moon. The craters are most easily seen at this boundary since the sun is at a low angle and casts very long shadows there. The moon looks particularly three-dimensional when viewed through a telescope during these phases; it is clear that the moon is a sphere—not a flat disk (see photo below).

The moon

For the earth, the terminator occurs not on a cratered rocky surface, but primarily on water (since the earth’s surface is 70 percent water). Job 26:10 suggests a “God’s eye” view of the earth. This biblical passage would be nonsense if the earth were flat, since there would be no true terminator; there is no line to “step over” that separates the day from night on a flat surface. Either it is day everywhere or night everywhere on a hypothetical “flat earth.” However, the earth does indeed have a boundary between light and darkness which is always a circle since the earth is round.

Curiously, many astronomy textbooks credit Pythagoras (c. 570–500 B.C.) with being the first person to assert that the earth is round.1 However, the biblical passages are older than this. Isaiah is generally acknowledged to have been written in the 700s B.C. and Job is thought to have been written around 2000 B.C. The secular astronomers before the time of Pythagoras must have thought the Bible was wrong about its teaching of a round earth, yet the Bible was exactly right. It was the secular science of the day that needed to be corrected.

The Earth Floats In Space

A very interesting verse to consider is Job 26:7 which states that God “hangs the earth on nothing.” This might evoke an image of God hanging the earth like a Christmas tree ornament, but hanging it on empty space. This verse expresses (in a poetic way) the fact that the earth is unsupported by any other object—something quite unnatural for the ancient writers to imagine. Indeed, the earth does float in space. We now have pictures of the earth taken from space that show it floating in the cosmic void. The earth literally hangs on nothing, just as the Bible teaches.

The Expansion of the Universe

The Bible indicates in several places that the universe has been “stretched out” or expanded. For example, Isaiah 40:22 teaches that God “stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” This would suggest that the universe has actually increased in size since its creation. God has stretched it out. He has expanded it (and is perhaps still expanding it). This verse must have seemed very strange when it was first written. The universe certainly doesn’t look as if it is expanding. After all, if you look at the night sky tonight, it will appear about the same size as it did the previous night, and the night before that. Ancient star maps appear virtually identical to the night sky today. Could the universe really have been expanded? It must have been hard to believe at the time.

In fact, secular scientists once believed that the universe was eternal and unchanging. The idea of an expanding universe would have been considered nonsense to most scientists of the past. It must have been tempting for Christians to reject what the Bible teaches about the expansion of the universe. Perhaps some Christians tried to “reinterpret” Isaiah 40:22, and read it in an unnatural way so that they wouldn’t have to believe in an expanding universe. When the world believes one thing, and the Bible teaches another, it is always tempting to think that God got the details wrong, but God is never wrong.

Most astronomers today believe that the universe is expanding. This expansion is a very natural result of the physics that Einstein discovered—general relativity. Moreover, there is observational evidence that the universe is indeed expanding. In the 1920s, astronomers discovered that virtually all clusters of galaxies appear to be moving away from all other clusters; this indicates that the entire universe is expanding.

This effect can be illustrated with points on a balloon. As the balloon is inflated, all points move farther away from each other. If the entire universe were being stretched out, the galaxies would all be moving away; and that is exactly what they appear to be doing. It is interesting that the Bible recorded the notion of an expanding universe thousands of years before secular science came to accept the idea.

See the full article: http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... irms-bible
_The Erotic Apologist
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

Thank you for your response.

Why do the authors of Isiah say "circle" instead of "sphere"? Did they lack a satisfactory term to describe a sphere? Is Isiah incapable of calling a sphere a sphere?

I think it's pretty clear that Answers In Genesis is simply trying to superimpose a modern understanding of the shape of the Earth upon an ancient text whose authors believed the Earth was flat.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately.
--Yahoo Bot

I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess.
--Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
_Gunnar
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Re: Is hell enough as punishment?

Post by _Gunnar »

subgenius wrote:thanks for missing the point, but at least be comforted in the fact that it was expected from you.
Point is, TEA could be lying about the number "in mind" (obviously since it was, in fact, 4). Especially given the disposition TEA has towards myself...it is more likely that TEA would be dishonest, insincere, etc..due to a expressed lack of respect or concern for myself.
That being said, the point is that like many of the "challenges" TEA imposes and insists upon others TEA is unwilling and unable to meet that same standard when applied to TEA's own assertions.
Either TEA can provide evidence for what TEA claims is true or TEA can simply concede TEA's position as a mere TEA-apologist.
I didn't miss the point. Of course it is possible that TEA might have chosen to lie about what number he was thinking of, but the fact remains that if one wanted to find out what number he was thinking of, he would be the one to ask about that--not you! What you claim is the number he was thinking of is totally irrelevant and has not the slightest bit of credibility!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
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