LittleNipper wrote:I believe a Judeo/Christian Bible based worldview is superior to anything else offered in the world. Not only is the value of life upheld, but a God centered rational reason for life at all is well established. Generally, as a nation moves closer to the true God that nation prospers and becomes a safe haven. As a nation rejects the true God of the Bible, that nation becomes awash in rejection, disorder, greed, and failure. I already see the Bible as historic and I'm clearly trying to give you some reasons for you to pursue after this loving yet righteous God.
You seem to be saying that you believe Christian nations prosper and become safer, when compared with non Christian nations. You're not really saying that, are you?
Norway ranks first in overall Prosperity, as it has since 2009, confirming its place as the most prosperous country in the world for the fifth consecutive year. The country also ranks first in the Economy and Social Capital sub-indices in 2013.
But, only 20% of Norwegians say that religion occupies an important place in their life (according to a Gallup poll in 2009), the fourth-lowest such percentage in the world (only Estonia, Sweden and Denmark are lower).[133]
In the early 1990s, studies estimated that between 4.7% and 5.3% of Norwegians attended church on a weekly basis.[134] This figure has dropped to about 2% – the lowest such percentage in Europe – according to data from 2009 and 2010
Plus, Nipper, if prosperity is a measure of the truth, doesn't the wealthiest Church win in your eyes, but lose in the eyes of Christ who extols the virtue of giving away worldly wealth? For instance, what does the Bible say about the ease at which a wealthy {nation} might find entry into the kingdom of God?
And how is this Christian nation faring recently?
The Philippines is a secular nation having a constitution separating the state and church. However, more than 90% of the population are Christians: about 80% belong to the Roman Catholic Church while 10% belong to other Christian denominations, such as the Iglesia ni Cristo, the Philippine Independent Church, United Church of Christ in the Philippines (a mainline Protestant united church), and Jehovah's Witnesses.[172] As a result of Spanish cultural influence, the Philippines is one of two predominantly Roman Catholic countries in Asia, the other being East Timor, a former Portuguese colony.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
LittleNipper wrote:I believe a Judeo/Christian Bible based worldview is superior to anything else offered in the world. Not only is the value of life upheld, but a God centered rational reason for life at all is well established. Generally, as a nation moves closer to the true God that nation prospers and becomes a safe haven. As a nation rejects the true God of the Bible, that nation becomes awash in rejection, disorder, greed, and failure. I already see the Bible as historic and I'm clearly trying to give you some reasons for you to pursue after this loving yet righteous God.
My brother throws your brother over the fence.
Cheap boast of a seven year old. Two cent a dozen.
If one moved, the other moved--but only sidewise, in a circle; they kept face to face and eye to eye all the time. Finally Tom said: "I can lick you!" "I'd like to see you try it." "Well, I can do it." "No you can't, either." "Yes I can." "No you can't." "I can." "You can't." "Can!" "Can't!" An uncomfortable pause. Then Tom said: "What's your name?" "'Tisn't any of your business, maybe." "Well I 'low I'll _make_ it my business." "Well why don't you?" "If you say much, I will." "Much--much--_much_. There now." "Oh, you think you're mighty smart, _don't_ you? I could lick you with one hand tied behind me, if I wanted to." "Well why don't you _do_ it? You _say_ you can do it." "Well I _will_, if you fool with me." "Oh yes--I've seen whole families in the same fix." "Smarty! You think you're _some_, now, _don't_ you? Oh, what a hat!" "You can lump that hat if you don't like it. I dare you to knock it off--and anybody that'll take a dare will suck eggs." "You're a liar!" "You're another." "You're a fighting liar and dasn't take it up." "Aw--take a walk!" "Say--if you give me much more of your sass I'll take and bounce a rock off'n your head." "Oh, of _course_ you will." "Well I _will_." "Well why don't you _do_ it then? What do you keep _saying_ you will for? Why don't you _do_ it? It's because you're afraid." "I _ain't_ afraid." "You are." "I ain't." "You are." Another pause, and more eying and sidling around each other. Presently they were shoulder to shoulder. Tom said: "Get away from here!" "Go away yourself!" "I won't." "I won't either."
Sounds familiar?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
LittleNipper wrote:I believe a Judeo/Christian Bible based worldview is superior to anything else offered in the world. Not only is the value of life upheld, but a God centered rational reason for life at all is well established. Generally, as a nation moves closer to the true God that nation prospers and becomes a safe haven. As a nation rejects the true God of the Bible, that nation becomes awash in rejection, disorder, greed, and failure. I already see the Bible as historic and I'm clearly trying to give you some reasons for you to pursue after this loving yet righteous God.
I have very little to add to what Bazooka has already posted.
I would, however, like to point out that belief in the Bible is one of the larger factors in the worst catastrophe to ever befall the United States--the Civil War. The Bible's ambiguity on the subject of slavery served only to heighten the tensions between the pro- and anti-slavery factions to the point where war was inevitable. Both the North and the South believed "God" was on their side, and the resulting conflict killed more Americans than any other war in the nation's history.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
Norway is predominately an Evangelical Christian nation. At least historically, with their monarch being the head of the church. Brazil was the last nation to end slavery in 1888. Brazil is predominately Roman Catholic with heavy pagan overtones from the indigenous population.
Norway is predominately an Evangelical Christian nation --- at least historically, with their monarch being the head of the church. Brazil was the last nation to end slavery in 1888. Brazil is predominately Roman Catholic with heavy pagan overtones from the indigenous population. As for the South just prior to the Civil War, the area was predominately Episcopal and Catholic. There was very little historic difference between the 2 churches except one was lorded over by the "Pope" and the other the "Monarch." Please see the http://www.acton.org/pub/religion-liber ... uring-civi
The wealthiest church is the one with the least horded material wealth but enjoys the most spirituality.
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The Erotic Apologist wrote: I would, however, like to point out that belief in the Bible is one of the larger factors in the worst catastrophe to ever befall the United States--the Civil War. The Bible's ambiguity on the subject of slavery served only to heighten the tensions between the pro- and anti-slavery factions to the point where war was inevitable. Both the North and the South believed "God" was on their side, and the resulting conflict killed more Americans than any other war in the nation's history.
A strange reading of the civil war. Do you mean that without the Bible the south would have rushed out and freed the slaves and provided them with equal opportunity to own land? Perhaps you mean that without the Bible the north would have shrugged their shoulders, declaring that slavery is fine?
Perhaps you mean that when slave dealers first proposed to Americans that African slaves survive the heat and difficulty of southern field work better than English servants people with out the Bibles lack of explicit instruction would quickly decline such sales offers. Only in the context of a lack of clarity about all possible slave situations would the opportunity be acted upon. Without the confusing story of God freeing Egyptian slaves we would all know slaves should never be bought or sold.?
Deuteronomy 33:1-29 This is the blessing that Moses, gave to the people of Israel before his death: The Lord came from Mount Sinai and appeared from Mount Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran and came from Meribah-kades with flaming fire at his right hand. God loves his people; all his holy ones He possesses, They follow his path and accept his teaching. Moses provided the Lord’s instruction, the special possession of the people of Israel. The Lord became king in Israel— when the leaders of the people assembled -- the tribes of Israel gathered as one. Moses said this about the tribe of Reuben: “Let the tribe of Reuben live and not die out, though they are few in number.”
Moses said this about the tribe of Judah: “O Lord, hear the cry of Judah and bring them together as a people. Give them strength to defend their cause; help them against their enemies!”
Moses said this about the tribe of Levi: “O Lord, you have given your Thummim and Urim—the sacred lots— to your faithful servants the Levites. You put them to the test at Massah and struggled with them at the waters of Meribah. The Levites obeyed your word and guarded your covenant. They were more loyal to you than to their own parents. They ignored their relatives and did not pay attention to their own children. They teach your regulations to Jacob; they give your instructions to Israel. They present incense before you and offer whole burnt offerings on the altar. Bless the ministry of the Levites, O Lord, and accept all the work of their hands. Hit their enemies where it hurts the most; strike down their foes so they never rise again.”
Moses said this about the tribe of Benjamin: “The people of Benjamin are loved by the Lord and live in safety beside him. He surrounds them continuously and preserves them from every harm.”
Moses said this about the tribes of Joseph: “May their land be blessed by the Lord with the precious gift of dew from the heavens and water from beneath the earth; with the rich fruit that grows in the sun, and the rich harvest produced each month; with the finest crops of the ancient mountains, and the abundance from the everlasting hills; with the best gifts of the earth and its bounty, and the favor of the one who appeared in the burning bush. May these blessings rest on Joseph’s head, crowning the brow of the prince among his brothers. Joseph has the majesty of a young bull; he has the horns of a wild ox. He will gore distant nations, driving them to the ends of the earth. This is my blessing for the multitudes of Ephraim and the thousands of Manasseh.”
Moses said this about the tribes of Zebulun and Issachar: “May the people of Zebulun prosper in their travels. May the people of Issachar prosper at home in their tents. They summon the people to the mountain to offer proper sacrifices there. They benefit from the riches of the sea and the hidden treasures in the sand.”
Moses said this about the tribe of Gad: “Blessed is the one who enlarges Gad’s territory! Gad is poised there like a lion to tear off an arm or a head. The people of Gad took the best land for themselves; a leader’s share was assigned to them. When the leaders of the people were assembled, they carried out the Lord’s justice and obeyed his regulations for Israel.”
Moses said this about the tribe of Dan: “Dan is a lion’s cub, leaping out from Bashan.” Moses said this about the tribe of Naphtali: “O Naphtali, you are rich in favor and full of the Lord’s blessings; may you possess the west and the south.”
Moses said this about the tribe of Asher: “May Asher be blessed above other sons; may he be esteemed by his brothers; may he bathe his feet in olive oil. May the bolts of your gates be of iron and bronze; may you be secure all your days.” “There is no one like the God of Israel.[i] He rides across the heavens to help you, across the skies in majestic splendor. The eternal God is your refuge, and his everlasting arms are under you. He drives out the enemy before you; he cries out, ‘Destroy them!’ So Israel will live in safety, prosperous Jacob in security, in a land of grain and new wine, while the heavens drop down dew. How blessed you are, O Israel! Who else is like you, a people saved by the Lord? He is your protecting shield and your triumphant sword! Your enemies will cringe before you, and you will stomp on their backs!”
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And this [is] the blessing [with] which Moses the man of God blessed the sons of Israel before his death,
2 and he saith: -- `Jehovah from Sinai hath come, And hath risen from Seir for them; He hath shone from mount Paran, And hath come [with] myriads of holy ones; At His right hand [are] springs for them.
3 Also He [is] loving the peoples; All His holy ones [are] in thy hand, And they -- they sat down at thy foot, [Each] He lifteth up at thy words.
4 A law hath Moses commanded us, A possession of the assembly of Jacob.
5 And he is in Jeshurun king, In the heads of the people gathering together, The tribes of Israel!
6 Let Reuben live, and not die, And let his men be a number.
7 And this [is] for Judah; and he saith: -- Hear, O Jehovah, the voice of Judah, And unto his people do Thou bring him in; His hand hath striven for him, And an help from his adversaries art Thou.
8 And of Levi he said: -- Thy Thummim and thy Urim [are] for thy pious one, Whom Thou hast tried in Massah, Thou dost strive with Him at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who is saying of his father and his mother, I have not seen him; And his brethren he hath not discerned, And his sons he hath not known; For they have observed Thy saying, And Thy covenant they keep.
10 They teach Thy judgments to Jacob, And Thy law to Israel; They put perfume in Thy nose, And whole burnt-offering on Thine altar.
11 Bless, O Jehovah, his strength, And the work of his hands Thou acceptest, Smite the loins of his withstanders, And of those hating him -- that they rise not!
12 Of Benjamin he said: -- The beloved of Jehovah doth tabernacle confidently by him, Covering him over all the day; Yea, between his shoulders He doth tabernacle.
13 And of Joseph he said: -- Blessed of Jehovah [is] his land, By precious things of the heavens, By dew, and by the deep crouching beneath,
14 And by precious things -- fruits of the sun, And by precious things -- cast forth by the moons,
15 And by chief things -- of the ancient mountains, And by precious things -- of the age-during heights,
16 And by precious things -- of earth and its fulness, And the good pleasure Of Him who is dwelling in the bush, -- Let it come for the head of Joseph, And for the crown of him Who is separate from his brethren.
17 His honour [is] a firstling of his ox, And his horns [are] horns of a reem; By them peoples he doth push together To the ends of earth; And they [are] the myriads of Ephraim, And they [are] the thousands of Manasseh.
18 And of Zebulun he said: -- Rejoice, O Zebulun, in thy going out, And, O Issachar, in thy tents;
19 Peoples [to] the mountain they call, There they sacrifice righteous sacrifices; For the abundance of the seas they suck, And hidden things hidden in the sand.
20 And of Gad he said: -- Blessed of the Enlarger [is] Gad, As a lioness he doth tabernacle, And hath torn the arm -- also the crown!
21 And he provideth the first part for himself, For there the portion of the lawgiver is covered, And he cometh [with] the heads of the people; The righteousness of Jehovah he hath done, And His judgments with Israel.
22 And of Dan he said: -- Dan [is] a lion's whelp; he doth leap from Bashan.
23 And of Naphtali he said: -- O Naphtali, satisfied with pleasure, And full of the blessing of Jehovah, West and south possess thou.
24 And of Asher he said: -- Blessed with sons [is] Asher, Let him be accepted by his brethren, And dipping in oil his foot.
25 Iron and brass [are] thy shoes, And as thy days -- thy strength.
26 There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Riding the heavens in thy help, And in His excellency the skies.
27 A habitation [is] the eternal God, And beneath [are] arms age-during. And He casteth out from thy presence the enemy, and saith, `Destroy!'
28 And Israel doth tabernacle [in] confidence alone; The eye of Jacob [is] unto a land of corn and wine; Also His heavens drop down dew.
29 O thy happiness, O Israel! who is like thee? A people saved by Jehovah, The shield of thy help, And He who [is] the sword of thine excellency: And thine enemies are subdued for thee, And thou on their high places dost tread.'
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:Norway is predominantly an Evangelical Christian nation --- at least historically, with their monarch being the head of the church. Brazil was the last nation to end slavery in 1888. Brazil is predominantly Roman Catholic with heavy pagan overtones from the indigenous population. As for the South just prior to the Civil War, the area was predominantly Episcopal and Catholic. There was very little historic difference between the 2 churches except one was lorded over by the "Pope" and the other the "Monarch." Please see the http://www.acton.org/pub/religion-liber ... uring-civi
The wealthiest church is the one with the least horded material wealth but enjoys the most spirituality.
You've dodged commenting on how one of the worlds most christian nations is currently faring. Is it a bit inconvenient to what you want to believe? And you now want the word "prosper" to mean a measure of spirituality. Laughable.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
huckelberry wrote:A strange reading of the civil war. Do you mean that without the Bible the south would have rushed out and freed the slaves and provided them with equal opportunity to own land? Perhaps you mean that without the Bible the north would have shrugged their shoulders, declaring that slavery is fine?
Perhaps you mean that when slave dealers first proposed to Americans that African slaves survive the heat and difficulty of southern field work better than English servants people with out the Bibles lack of explicit instruction would quickly decline such sales offers. Only in the context of a lack of clarity about all possible slave situations would the opportunity be acted upon. Without the confusing story of God freeing Egyptian slaves we would all know slaves should never be bought or sold.?
"A strange reading of the civil war." Yes, probably, but it’s nowhere near as strange as Mark Twain’s reading of the Civil War. When asked what he thought was the primary cause of the Civil War Mark Twain replied, “Sir Walter Scott started the Civil War.”
My reading of the Civil War is based on two assumptions:
The institution of African slavery was the primary cause of the Civil War.
A clear Biblical injunction against African slavery (or any other system of racial servitude) would have undermined the growth of the South’s "peculiar institution".
"Do you mean that without the Bible the South would have rushed out and freed the slaves and provided them with equal opportunity to own land? Perhaps you mean that without the Bible the north would have shrugged their shoulders, declaring that slavery is fine?" No—I mean that a clear Biblical injunction against racial servitude would have done much to prevent South from importing African slaves in the first place.
"Perhaps you mean that when slave dealers first proposed to Americans that African slaves survive the heat and difficulty of southern field work better than English servants people with out the Bibles lack of explicit instruction would quickly decline such sales offers." Yes, something like that, but not nearly that dramatic.
"Only in the context of a lack of clarity about all possible slave situations would the opportunity be acted upon." I don't know what you mean by "all possible slave situations". And in any case, the Civil War was not the result of "all possible slave situations"; it was specifically the result of a system of widespread, ingrained, chronic racial servitude. Before the Civil War, two thirds of all the people in the South either A) owned slaves, or B) were slaves.
"Without the confusing story of God freeing Egyptian slaves we would all know slaves should never be bought or sold?" That’s exactly my point. The Bible’s attitude toward slavery is nowhere near as clear as its condemnation of gay sex, or adultery, or taking the Lord's name in vain, or performing labor on the Sabbath.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars