Bible verse by verse

[_LittleNipper]

Norway is predominantly an Evangelical Christian nation --- at least historically, with their monarch being the head of the church.
Brazil was the last nation to end slavery in 1888. Brazil is predominantly Roman Catholic with heavy pagan overtones from the indigenous population.
As for the South just prior to the Civil War, the area was predominantly Episcopal and Catholic. There was very little historic difference between the 2 churches except one was lorded over by the "Pope" and the other the "Monarch." Please see the http://www.acton.org/pub/religion-liber ... uring-civi

The wealthiest church is the one with the least horded material wealth but enjoys the most spirituality.

You've dodged commenting on how one of the worlds most christian nations is currently faring. Is it a bit inconvenient to what you want to believe? And you now want the word "prosper" to mean a measure of spirituality. Laughable.

I've commented on the USA many times. It is presently under judgment. It sponsors the murder of babies and suffers murderers to live. It perverts marriage and then twists it into an abomination. It gives freedom of speech to the godless and steals it from those striving to please God. It claims to be a "God fearing nation," only when it is suitable to its own ends. The Civil War was the result of America's failure to accept it's own premise that all men are created equal. I fear what God may allow...

[_Quasimodo]

I've commented on the USA many times. It is presently under judgment.

It must be wonderful to know the mind of God.

It sponsors the murder of babies and suffers murderers to live. It perverts marriage and then twists it into an abomination. It gives freedom of speech to the godless and steals it from those striving to please God.

I think I recall Jesus saying something about being forgiving and turning the other cheek. Of course, you would know more about that than me. I'm also pretty sure that the constitution provides free speech to everyone. Even for those that disagree with you. It must be tough for you to live in a land where where religious freedom also allows people to disagree with religion.

If you could just convert to Islam, you could live in one of many different countries whose laws would restrict any dissention of the Islamic principles.

It claims to be a "God fearing nation," only when it is suitable to its own ends.

I don't believe it does. I think it claims to have no official religion. I'm quite sure you would be happier in a country that legally promotes one religion over all others. I think most of those are Muslim countries. You will just have to change books and faith. It shouldn't be a problem. One hubristic philosophy is pretty much the same as another.

[_LittleNipper]

I've commented on the USA many times. It is presently under judgment.

It must be wonderful to know the mind of God.

It sponsors the murder of babies and suffers murderers to live. It perverts marriage and then twists it into an abomination. It gives freedom of speech to the godless and steals it from those striving to please God.

I think I recall Jesus saying something about being forgiving and turning the other cheek. Of course, you would know more about that than me. I'm also pretty sure that the constitution provides free speech to everyone. Even for those that disagree with you. It must be tough for you to live in a land where where religious freedom also allows people to disagree with religion.

If you could just convert to Islam, you could live in one of many different countries whose laws would restrict any dissention of the Islamic principles.

It claims to be a "God fearing nation," only when it is suitable to its own ends.

Read the Bible and it should become very obvious what the mind of God is. It certainly isn't rocket science.
I don't believe it does. I think it claims to have no official religion. I'm quite sure you would be happier in a country that legally promotes one religion over all others. I think most of those are Muslim countries. You will just have to change books and faith. It shouldn't be a problem. One hubristic philosophy is pretty much the same as another.

God Bless America, Land that I love.
Stand beside her and Guide her through the night with a light FROM ABOVE........................ Sort of ironic today. Though it was not so much during the 1940's, 50's , and very early 60's. And there were other moments in the 1980's, etc., when America almost seemed to understand the ramifications and strove to turn things around for a minute or two...
Jesus wants believers to be forgiving and give vengeance over to him. That hardly sounds like God will not ever punish a nation that goes too far. Islamic nations treat their citizens as chattel. The ruling class dictates to the citizens what they expect of the lower classes while they themselves live quite aloof and free to do as they wish. America is slowly turning into just such a place without Islamic dictates. It is called do as I say and not as I do. Example: Will Obama have to deal with Obama care? I don't think so.

[_huckelberry]

"Do you mean that without the Bible the South would have rushed out and freed the slaves and provided them with equal opportunity to own land? Perhaps you mean that without the Bible the north would have shrugged their shoulders, declaring that slavery is fine?"
No—I mean that a clear Biblical injunction against racial servitude would have done much to prevent South from importing African slaves in the first place.


b]"Without the confusing story of God freeing Egyptian slaves we would all know slaves should never be bought or sold?"[/b]
That’s exactly my point. The Bible’s attitude toward slavery is nowhere near as clear as its condemnation of gay sex, or adultery, or taking the Lord's name in vain, or performing labor on the Sabbath.

I might observe that I can see your point but cannot confine my mind to that one point alone. your comment about the limits of Biblical moral instruction, and those limits are important, make me wonder how we would have fared with Imperial Roman wisdom as a guide instead.

I view the Bible as requiring us to use our own moral intelligence to further the moral thinking started but incomplete in the book.

Does it matter to you that racial servitude is a problem nobody in the Bible had ever heard of? That consideration is probably not as important as the necessity of us performing our own genuine moral judgement.

It might be observed that clear legal statements have a curious ability to find all kinds of ambiguity in real life. No work on the Sabbath sounds pretty direct as you point out. Consider the problems of deciding what work is under consideration. Then consider that puzzle the Christians may or may not think the rule applies to them. Then consider the irony that most who think it apples apply it to a day which is not even the Sabbath, Sunday.

I was thinking that the rule against killing is pretty direct. It does not seem to have guided Columbus or slave traffickers who could read the ten commandments.

It is too bad but we must create moral decisions with our own intelligence applied to genuine concern for others. No book can take the place of that genuine spirit.

[_Bazooka]

I've commented on the USA many times. It is presently under judgment. It sponsors the murder of babies and suffers murderers to live. It perverts marriage and then twists it into an abomination. It gives freedom of speech to the godless and steals it from those striving to please God. It claims to be a "God fearing nation," only when it is suitable to its own ends. The Civil War was the result of America's failure to accept it's own premise that all men are created equal. I fear what God may allow...

Thanks for the sputum spraying rant about the USA (you may wish to cleanse your screen before continuing) but I didn't mention the USA.

No, I refer you to the prosperity currently being experienced by the almost 100% Christian nation of the Philippines.
If Christianity = prosperity how do you explain what is happening there?

[_Gunnar]

I've commented on the USA many times. It is presently under judgment.

It must be wonderful to know the mind of God.

It sponsors the murder of babies and suffers murderers to live. It perverts marriage and then twists it into an abomination. It gives freedom of speech to the godless and steals it from those striving to please God.

I think I recall Jesus saying something about being forgiving and turning the other cheek. Of course, you would know more about that than me. I'm also pretty sure that the constitution provides free speech to everyone. Even for those that disagree with you. It must be tough for you to live in a land where where religious freedom also allows people to disagree with religion.

If you could just convert to Islam, you could live in one of many different countries whose laws would restrict any dissention of the Islamic principles.

It claims to be a "God fearing nation," only when it is suitable to its own ends.

I don't believe it does. I think it claims to have no official religion. I'm quite sure you would be happier in a country that legally promotes one religion over all others. I think most of those are Muslim countries. You will just have to change books and faith. It shouldn't be a problem. One hubristic philosophy is pretty much the same as another.

What LittleNipper fails to understand is that religion or religiosity is not what made the USA a great nation. The freedom to choose one's own religion or no religion at all guaranteed by our constitution had much more to do with that than any perceived religiosity of this nation or its populace. Contrary to what many religious fundamentalists would have us believe, our most prominent Founding Fathers did not intend to found a Christian nation, or even a religious one. They deliberately set out to found a secular one, with probably the first truly secular government in the history of this world. Ironically, this very secularity that many Christian fundamentalists decry, and the religious freedom it guarantees, is what made possible the enormous proliferation of new religious sects in this country that contribute to making it one of the most religious, percentagewise, of all the highly developed nations in the world.

[_subgenius]

...(snip)...
What LittleNipper fails to understand is that religion or religiosity is not what made the USA a great nation. The freedom to choose one's own religion or no religion at all guaranteed by our constitution had much more to do with that than any perceived religiosity of this nation or its populace.

exactly how?
history seems to prove that religion influenced the greatness of our nation more than atheism. It is the the freedom OF religion in this country that is its key to greatness...not freedom FROM religion. Religion and religious people have contributed, created, and established more success, greatness, and virtue in this nation than any anti-theists.
And yes, nothing is perfect, but feel free to bring up any exceptions and proclaim them as being the rule.

Contrary to what many religious fundamentalists would have us believe, our most prominent Founding Fathers did not intend to found a Christian nation, or even a religious one.

wha? how do you even conclude such? is the use of God in the opening paragraph of the DoI a mere red herring?
Claiming that men have a Creator too ambiguous for you? Or is it the notion that there exists "self evident truths" and "inalienable rights" ? - blatantconcepts of absolute objectivity...concepts which transcend the subjective drivel spewed daily by atheists and the like....yes, clearly the Founding Fathers were shedding Christianity...clearly they were not simply forming a nation for the free exercise of religion, but a nation where religion would not exist at all...geez.

They deliberately set out to found a secular one, with probably the first truly secular government in the history of this world.

wow....just wow....put the bong down.
A secular state would be neutral about religion...clearly our government has never....never...been neutral on the subject...we actually have laws specific to religion.

Ironically, this very secularity that many Christian fundamentalists decry, and the religious freedom it guarantees, is what made possible the enormous proliferation of new religious sects in this country that contribute to making it one of the most religious, percentagewise, of all the highly developed nations in the world.

So we are to believe that it is "ironic" that religion would flourish in an environment that encourages the free exercise of religion?
The actual irony is that atheism is still not the popular choice even when people are free to choose it....wait....that is not ironic either.

[_LittleNipper]

I don't believe it does. I think it claims to have no official religion. I'm quite sure you would be happier in a country that legally promotes one religion over all others. I think most of those are Muslim countries. You will just have to change books and faith. It shouldn't be a problem. One hubristic philosophy is pretty much the same as another.
What LittleNipper fails to understand is that religion or religiosity is not what made the USA a great nation. The freedom to choose one's own religion or no religion at all guaranteed by our constitution had much more to do with that than any perceived religiosity of this nation or its populace. Contrary to what many religious fundamentalists would have us believe, our most prominent Founding Fathers did not intend to found a Christian nation, or even a religious one. They deliberately set out to found a secular one, with probably the first truly secular government in the history of this world. Ironically, this very secularity that many Christian fundamentalists decry, and the religious freedom it guarantees, is what made possible the enormous proliferation of new religious sects in this country that contribute to making it one of the most religious, percentagewise, of all the highly developed nations in the world.

What you seem to misrepresent (as do also many liberals) is that our Founding Fathers wanted nothing but the very best for our country. They fully understood that God's blessings are an intregral part of what protects a nation and keeps it strong and prosperous. They certainly did not ever wish to promote an evil ungodly nation. Liberals, especially today, seem to think that anything anyone wants to do that doesn't physically hurt another (at least not without that person's cooperation) is acceptable. The Founding Fathers at least tried to understand that the most important thing was to seek after God's will, even if there were questions as to the nature of God. They realized that a nation of ingrates would spell disaster for that nation. They were not secular at all. They wanted a government that was benevolent of religion and not indifferent, or even worse --------------- obstructive to a godly focus. They didn't want a State Church. They did; however,want a nation of churches.
Since 1963, the Federal Government has prevented parents at a community level from attempting to set righteous standards for their students. It must be realized that Evolution had been explained in public schools for over 60 years when the morning community exercise of an opening Bible reading by an obliging student in the classroom became forboden. As an indirect result, drug use, unmarried pregnancies, abortion, and crime escalated. At the very same time, test scores began to go down. Reading comprehension suffered. Cause an affect? Quite possibly, but not one this present generation of secular researchers seems to even recognize. And that brings us to THE REALITY. The government is now so intent in preventing religious thought from being publically considered, that they have IN FACT instituted and fabricated POLITICAL INCORRECTNESS into a NATIONAL RELIGION! Don't invoke the name of Jesus in national prayers (even if the person praying is a Christian). Removal of religious symbols from all military sanctuaries on base (no matter who built them)... Have nothing to say publically regarding various behavior patterns, though the government does embrace what is now popular in secular thought and promotes it as normal. We went from a nation of the Religious to a nation of Secularist. Can I imagine that the Anti-Christ will originate in America? Certainly, today I can.

[_Bazooka]

What you seem to misrepresent (as do also many liberals) is that our Founding Fathers wanted nothing but the very best for our country. They fully understood that God's blessings are an intregral part of what protects a nation and keeps it strong and prosperous.

Why has God removed his blessings from the (>90%) Christian nation of the Philippines?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I might observe that I can see your point but cannot confine my mind to that one point alone. your comment about the limits of Biblical moral instruction, and those limits are important, make me wonder how we would have fared with Imperial Roman wisdom as a guide instead.

What about Roman jurisprudence? How much would you say we've been guided by the jurisprudence of pagan Romans?

I view the Bible as requiring us to use our own moral intelligence to further the moral thinking started but incomplete in the book.

That's good, because much of what passes for "morality" in the Bible is not only incompatible with modern society, but also illegal, and downright disgusting.

Does it matter to you that racial servitude is a problem nobody in the Bible had ever heard of?

Yahweh was certainly aware of the phenomenon of racial servitude--assuming Yahweh exists. In my opinion, the Bible is the best argument against Yahweh's existence.

That consideration is probably not as important as the necessity of us performing our own genuine moral judgement.

I heartily agree.

It might be observed that clear legal statements have a curious ability to find all kinds of ambiguity in real life. No work on the Sabbath sounds pretty direct as you point out. Consider the problems of deciding what work is under consideration. Then consider that puzzle the Christians may or may not think the rule applies to them. Then consider the irony that most who think it apples apply it to a day which is not even the Sabbath, Sunday.

In researching my genealogy, I've discovered I have a number of ancestors who, on the eve of the Civil War, were house servants in Missouri. I highly doubt that any of my slave ancestors would have been won over by "appeals to ambiguity" of the sort that you are presenting, here.

I was thinking that the rule against killing is pretty direct. It does not seem to have guided Columbus or slave traffickers who could read the ten commandments.

I don't see where you're going with this.

It is too bad but we must create moral decisions with our own intelligence applied to genuine concern for others. No book can take the place of that genuine spirit.

I agree--the superstitions, prejudices, and customs of Bronze-age human traffickers are a poor foundation for modern morality.