Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Kishkumen wrote:I was unaware that the archaeological community had arrived at a place where its view of ancient America is more in line with the Book of Mormon narrative about a small band of Hebrews colonizing America.

Interesting!


Not only that, but apparently the best peer-reviewed scholarship dealing with the question of elephants and the Book of Mormon is from the 1950s.
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_Runtu
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Runtu »

Water Dog wrote:Reposted just for you.


I stand by my statement: none of this addresses what I wrote, let alone decimates anything.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Kishkumen »

Water Dog wrote:Is there no such thing as an intellectually honest critic or is it just the ones on this forum?


Water Dog, no one is interested in your snipe hunt. We are well familiar with the many ridiculous arguments and pseudo-science that have been thrown at the wall in an effort to support LDS testimonies of the Book of Mormon as an ancient text. Reading just one more book or article will be an exercise in chasing those vanishingly small returns.

Either people have a spiritual testimony that the Book of Mormon is true or they do not. Then, those who have said testimony either consider it an ancient text or they do not. I have a lot more sympathy with the latter group. Those who are ready to swallow any sliver of possibility that the book is ancient against the obvious are not going to receive an enthusiastic reception here. It has nothing to do with apostates and anti-MOrmons dismissing evidence or being unwilling to read. To the contrary, it is about practical people cutting their losses when they realize that an argument is poorly supported and obviously blinkered.
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_Brad
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Brad »

Water Dog wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:Not only that, but apparently the best peer-reviewed scholarship dealing with the question of elephants and the Book of Mormon is from the 1950s.


Not only are you engaging in a logical fallacy, but one which isn't even true. I provided 3 sources, one from 1957, 1967, and then 2004. And the 2004 source, if you had looked it up, itself reverences several other sources from 80s and I think 90s.

Is there no such thing as an intellectually honest critic or is it just the ones on this forum?


Before you question other's honesty, please answer my question. Does mainstream archeology consider what you've cited as evidence that elephants existed in the relevant place and at the relevant times? Can you provide any review article from someone other than Sorenson that discusses your evidence in the context of mainstream archeology?

Let's take these sources one at at time. Since you cite them, I assume you've vetted them. Please quote from your 1957 source the information in the article from which you conclude that elephants existed in relevant locations during the relevant time frames.
_Brad
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Brad »

Water Dog wrote:Not that you guys actually care about learning the truth, but there is a rather outstanding book which aggregates all this information. Mormon's Codex by Sorenson. The book is massive, just the bibliography is around 150 pages.

http://www.amazon.com/Mormons-Codex-Anc ... rmon+codex


FYI: Massive does not equate to true.

If true, what Sorenson claims would be truly revolutionary. Do you ever wonder why he published a book on the subject as opposed to a reputable peer reviewed journal?
_Runtu
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Runtu »

Kishkumen wrote:
Water Dog wrote:Is there no such thing as an intellectually honest critic or is it just the ones on this forum?


Water Dog, no one is interested in your snipe hunt. We are well familiar with the many ridiculous arguments and pseudo-science that have been thrown at the wall in an effort to support LDS testimonies of the Book of Mormon as an ancient text. Reading just one more book or article will be an exercise in chasing those vanishingly small returns.

Either people have a spiritual testimony that the Book of Mormon is true or they do not. Then, those who have said testimony either consider it an ancient text or they do not. I have a lot more sympathy with the latter group. Those who are ready to swallow any sliver of possibility that the book is ancient against the obvious are not going to receive an enthusiastic reception here. It has nothing to do with apostates and anti-MOrmons dismissing evidence or being unwilling to read. To the contrary, it is about practical people cutting their losses when they realize that an argument is poorly supported and obviously blinkered.


Well said. I have nothing against Water Dog, but what I see is a lot of unsupported assertions about a growing body of evidence supporting the Book of Mormon. What has John Sorensen come up with in his book that materially changes anything? Obviously, Water Dog isn't interested in suggesting anything.

My interaction with him has been quite frustrating because, after I showed rather specifically how the Book of Mormon "bullseyes" were in the current discussion in Joseph Smith's time and place, he simply waved it off by saying that other books were different from the Book of Mormon. Why does that matter? He doesn't say.

The thing that most apologists seem to forget is that we all started where they are: we wanted the Book of Mormon to be true, and we were happy to accept even tenuous evidence of its historicity. But eventually we realized that the evidence overwhelmingly points away from its antiquity. Most of us did not want that at all and only reluctantly acknowledged where the evidence leads. It hurt like hell to go through what we went through, so we are unlikely to get excited about Water Dog's vague assertions or John Sorensen's huge accumulation of evidence that might be plausible if you look at it from the right angle and give it enough fudge room.

For the record, I have not read Sorensen's latest. That said, I've read everything FAIR, FARMS, and the Interpreter crowd have to say, and there's still this giant empty space where the Nephites ought to be. And frankly, dropping Jeff Lindsay's name as a role model is not an encouraging sign.
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_sock puppet
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _sock puppet »

Runtu wrote:The thing that most apologists seem to forget is that we all started where they are: we wanted the Book of Mormon to be true, and we were happy to accept even tenuous evidence of its historicity. But eventually we realized that the evidence overwhelmingly points away from its antiquity. Most of us did not want that at all and only reluctantly acknowledged where the evidence leads. It hurt like hell to go through what we went through, ... .

I did want the Book of Mormon/Book of Abraham/Book of Mormon/D&C as well as the KJV Bible to be true. I devoted two years of my life to trying to prove such out to myself.

I accepted for a long time tenuous evidence of the LDS-specific scriptures.

I eventually realized that such hope was crushed under the overwhelming evidence pointing away from its antiquity.

Then, upon re-examining LDS-specific scriptures, found them nothing rather facile, racist, violent, and only a reiteration of positive values already found in the New Testament.

What hurt like hell was the betrayal of unthinking, rote, Stepford Wives-like parentage and community had imposed.
_Gadianton
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Gadianton »

Water Dog wrote:Not that you guys actually care about learning the truth, but there is a rather outstanding book which aggregates all this information. Mormon's Codex by Sorenson. The book is massive, just the bibliography is around 150 pages.


One thing you'll learn as you mature intellectually, Water Dog, is that what counts is how many books cite The Mormon Codex, not how many books The Mormon Codex cites. Many of us on this forum have been through the Sorenson material several times with the apologists. In fact, over on FAIR a few years ago, several senior-tier Mopologists from the Maxwell Institute showed up on the forum and were left flailing about in frustration as our very own Beastie had Sorenson's number, having invested a year or two studying Mopologist Mesoamerican material. They grew so frustrated that the president of FAIR made an "executive decision" to ban Beastie, as she had broken no rules, in order to save face. Quite entertaining. What was fascinating to me was the borderline fraudulent claims within Sorenson's work that slipped past unquestioned by his Mopologist audience, the lay faithful, and probably most critics, since it would take a certain familiarity with Masoamerican history most of us don't have to see it.

As other have pointed out, there is a reason why a massive book by Sorenson with a 150 page bibliography exists on the Book of Mormon and yet, not a single peer-reviewed paper on Book of Mormon archeology in a real journal.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:One thing you'll learn as you mature intellectually, Water Dog, is that what counts is how many books cite The Mormon Codex, not how many books The Mormon Codex cites.


Word.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Gadianton
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Gadianton »

WD wrote:Fatuous argument, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what Mormon's Codex is as well as academics. Every single citation in Mormon's Codex IS a "peer-reviewed paper on Book of Mormon archaeology in a real journal." Those are all peer reviewed sources. And all of that work is cited by other sources, as is Sorenson's work as well (Sorenson didn't just compile a bunch of other people's work, he's a famous, well-published archaeologist himself). Mormon's Codex is simply an analysis of peer-reviewed research and how it establishes a plausible setting which fits with the Book of Mormon.


That was a lot of effort just to confirm that this book is not peer reviewed material.

This has nothing to do with whether or not the Book of Mormon is true. Even if it were, and that were established beyond rebuke, why would someone cite Mormon's Codex in an archaeology publication? Why would some archaeologist digging up bones in Guatemala cite Mormon's Codex, ever? This would be like me writing a book about the future of nanotechnology and how someday we'll have atomizers and transporters like in Star Trek, and I base my analysis on thousands of research papers published in physics, chemistry, and engineering journals. Why would some researcher studying subatomic particles with lattice structures ever cite my book? Arguing that the lack of such citations somehow unsubstantiates my claims is nonsensical.


Not sure what you're getting at. It sounds like you're saying that Sorenson isn't doing real scholarship, that he's more like a popular science writer, and as such, we shouldn't expect his work on the Book of Mormon to be peer reviewed. I'm just going to point out that this line of argument is going to backfire on you...

There you go again with that logical fallacy, putting your own burden of proof on us.


There is no principle in formal or informal logic that dictates "burden of proof". There may be contrived rules within a formal debate or legal forum where one holds the burden of proof, but by shirking it, one may lose standing within the forum, but one is not committing a logical fallacy.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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