palerobber wrote:though it's possible that Joseph Smith was directly or indirectly influenced by Late War as the Johnsons explore, i think the thing which Hunt's book shows us beyond all doubt is how easily the "Hebraic" style from the Bible can be imitated by someone without any special linguistic training (i.e. Joseph Smith didn't need to "learn" it from Late War or anywhere else).
That is the obvious conclusion. I almost feel bad for all the apologists who have spent so much time trying to find Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon. To see them sputtering that the same Hebraisms in the Late War are just coincidence is sort of sad.
ControlFreak wrote:The point of the Late War is NOT to disprove the Book of Mormon directly, because I think most people agree with you that writing in a style similar to the time and place is not a problem (although picking a hokey faux-bible style is a bit strange). The point of the Late War IS that it disproves one of the main apologetic arguments that tries to prove the Book of Mormon came from supernatural sources, because Joseph would have NO WAY of writing such things otherwise. Well, guess what? We just found a direct, easy way for Joseph to learn and incorporate a "Hebraic" style of writing.
though it's possible that Joseph Smith was directly or indirectly influenced by Late War as the Johnsons explore, i think the thing which Hunt's book shows us beyond all doubt is how easily the "Hebraic" style from the Bible can be imitated by someone without any special linguistic training (i.e. Joseph Smith didn't need to "learn" it from Late War or anywhere else).
One of the more interesting revelations from The Late War discussion was the reason why the author chose that hokey faux-biblical style. It kind of got lost in the many other tangents we went down on this thread, but I think it was one of the more significant findings: the author wrote in a style imitative of the language of the King James Bible because he thought that if schoolkids were exposed to that style of writing it would increase their appreciation for the scriptures. Joseph Smith simply took that idea one step further (which fact, I think, provides us a fascinating glimpse into Smith's personality).
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Equality wrote:One of the more interesting revelations from The Late War discussion was the reason why the author chose that hokey faux-biblical style. It kind of got lost in the many other tangents we went down on this thread, but I think it was one of the more significant findings: the author wrote in a style imitative of the language of the King James Bible because he thought that if schoolkids were exposed to that style of writing it would increase their appreciation for the scriptures. Joseph Smith simply took that idea one step further (which fact, I think, provides us a fascinating glimpse into Smith's personality).
Exactly. The statements in the Preface were, to me, the most illuminating parts of the book because they explain the style and content choices for the book. These choices make a great deal of sense in the case of the Book of Mormon as well.
Equality wrote:One of the more interesting revelations from The Late War discussion was the reason why the author chose that hokey faux-biblical style. It kind of got lost in the many other tangents we went down on this thread, but I think it was one of the more significant findings: the author wrote in a style imitative of the language of the King James Bible because he thought that if schoolkids were exposed to that style of writing it would increase their appreciation for the scriptures.
I'm not sure that matters all that much. By 1817, the author is on record as saying that using the "phraseology of the best of books" (the Bible) would communicate with "simplicity and strength" and induce people (not just schoolkids) to read the scriptures. One can easily imagine an impressionable author thinking, "That's a great idea!" and modeling his or her style after the Bible's.
I'm not sure that matters all that much. By 1817, the author is on record as saying that using the "phraseology of the best of books" (the Bible) would communicate with "simplicity and strength" and induce people (not just schoolkids) to read the scriptures. One can easily imagine an impressionable author thinking, "That's a great idea!" and modeling his or her style after the Bible's.
Especially one who was clearly interested in selling his book initially.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
palerobber wrote:though it's possible that Joseph Smith was directly or indirectly influenced by Late War as the Johnsons explore, i think the thing which Hunt's book shows us beyond all doubt is how easily the "Hebraic" style from the Bible can be imitated by someone without any special linguistic training (i.e. Joseph Smith didn't need to "learn" it from Late War or anywhere else).
That is the obvious conclusion. I almost feel bad for all the apologists who have spent so much time trying to find Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon. To see them sputtering that the same Hebraisms in the Late War are just coincidence is sort of sad.
Not just Hebraisms, but all the phrases they tried to say are from ancient meso-America that found there way into the late war and Book of Mormon.
Themis wrote:Not just Hebraisms, but all the phrases they tried to say are from ancient meso-America that found there way into the late war and Book of Mormon.
In the original preface to Late War, the author says he has done a "humble imitation of the oriental." The results of the imitation are illuminating, as we see the same results in the Book of Mormon's humble imitation of the same.
This doesn't prove anything, of course, but it certainly helps us contextualize the book and its contents.
Equality wrote:One of the more interesting revelations from The Late War discussion was the reason why the author chose that hokey faux-biblical style. It kind of got lost in the many other tangents we went down on this thread, but I think it was one of the more significant findings: the author wrote in a style imitative of the language of the King James Bible because he thought that if schoolkids were exposed to that style of writing it would increase their appreciation for the scriptures.
It is true that the preface to the first edition of The Late War does not say that the author wrote in the faux biblical style so that schoolkids would increase their appreciation for the scriptures, but it is also true that the author stated that was his intention and the book was, in fact, marketed that way years before the Book of Mormon appeared, so I am not sure what "erroneous notion" you think you have corrected.
Another interesting tidbit from the Preface is this quote, where the author "commits his work to the public candour, apologizing only for any defect in the style, which he hopes will not be less pleasing for being an humble imitation of the oriental." Compare to the title page of the Book of Mormon, which Joseph Smith said was engraved by the hand of Mormon: "And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ." This "apology" in a preface or title page to a work was common in the 19th century. And, apparently in 4th-century Mesoamerican plate-engraving as well.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Equality wrote:Another interesting tidbit from the Preface is this quote, where the author "commits his work to the public candour, apologizing only for any defect in the style, which he hopes will not be less pleasing for being an humble imitation of the oriental." Compare to the title page of the Book of Mormon, which Joseph Smith said was engraved by the hand of Mormon: "And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ." This "apology" in a preface or title page to a work was common in the 19th century. And, apparently in 4th-century Mesoamerican plate-engraving as well.
That was indeed a convention of nineteenth-century works, so much so that Twain satirizes it in the opening lines of Huckleberry Finn.