Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

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_Brackite
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Brackite »

Hasa Diga Eebowai wrote:
2 Nephi 5:15 wrote: 15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.


Ether 9: 17-19 wrote: 17 Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things;
18 And also all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man.
19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.



Late War Chapter XX wrote:11 Now the land of Columbia is a most plentiful land, yielding gold and silver, and brass and iron abundantly.
12 Likewise, all manner of creatures which are used for food, and herbs and fruits of the earth:
13 From the red cherry, and the rosy peach of the north, to the lemon, and the golden orange of the south.
14 And from the small insect, that cheateth the microscopic eye, to the huge mammoth that once moved on the borders of the river Hudson-; on the great river Ohio; and even down to the country of Patagonia in the south.
15 Now the heighth of a mammoth is about seven cubits and a half, and the length thereof fourteen cubits; and the bones thereof being weighed are more than thirty thousand shekels; and the length of the tusks is more than six cubits.
16 It is more wonderful than the elephant; and the history thereof, is it not recorded in the book of Jefferson, the scribe ?


Well done Kish, you effectively ended my lurking.

This really does look like a smoking gun.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

ETA: Some underlining highlighting similarities. Could the cureloms or cumoms be mammoths?



Also interesting with this is First Nephi Chapter 18, Verse 25:

1 Nephi 18:

[25] And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.
Last edited by MSNbot Media on Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Brackite
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Brackite »

Darth J wrote:http://www.bmaf.org/node/198

If Joseph had authored the Book of Mormon rather than translated it, he naturally would have used tornado rather than whirlwind as a reflection of his “vocabulary, environment, and perceptions” or his “language and vernacular.” He certainly would have had no way of knowing that whirlwind was the legitimate choice as a reflection of Maya languages from Mesoamerica....

Joseph’s choice of whirlwind rather than tornado went beyond his upstate New York “vocabulary, environment, and perceptions” or “language and vernacular.”


Ch. IX, pp. 33

1. NOW the movements of the enemy were as the motion of a whirlwind, which passeth from the north to the south, and from the east to the west.


What a lame apologetic defense argument for the Book of Mormon anyway. The word 'whirlwind' is found many places within the King James Version of the Bible.
For example:

2 Kings 2:1 - And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. (KJV)

2 Kings 2:11 - And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (KJV)

Job 38:1 - Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, (KJV)

Proverbs 1:27 - when your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. (KJV)

Proverbs 10:25 - As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation. (KJV)

Isaiah 5:28 - whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: (KJV)



Isaiah Chapter Five, verse 28 is basically quoted in the Book of Mormon in Second Nephi Chapter 15, verse 28.
Here is that passage:

2 Nephi 15:

[28] Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Equality
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Equality »

"Whirlwind" is also found in an awesome Johnny Cash song (although probably not an influence on the Book of Mormon text):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9IfHDi-2EA
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_Nevo
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Nevo »

Equality wrote:It is true that the preface to the first edition of The Late War does not say that the author wrote in the faux biblical style so that schoolkids would increase their appreciation for the scriptures, but it is also true that the author stated that was his intention and the book was, in fact, marketed that way years before the Book of Mormon appeared, so I am not sure what "erroneous notion" you think you have corrected.

The erroneous notion is the idea that Hunt wrote The Late War in pseudo-biblical style to increase schoolkids' appreciation of the Bible. That's not accurate. As the 1816 preface makes clear, Hunt's original intended reader was "the public"—not schoolchildren. There is no evidence that he wrote in "the ancient historical style" for pedagogic purposes. That was an afterthought.

Does any of this matter? Perhaps not. I'm just being argumentative.
_Themis
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Themis »

Nevo wrote:
Does any of this matter? Perhaps not. I'm just being argumentative.


Understandable. This book looks to be a gem that keeps on giving and will be a major pain in the ass to many apologetic arguments it dismantles. I suppose this is why some seem so dismissive of it.
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_Nevo
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Nevo »

Themis wrote:Understandable. This book looks to be a gem that keeps on giving and will be a major pain in the ass to many apologetic arguments it dismantles. I suppose this is why some seem so dismissive of it.

Speaking of dismissive, how come Michael Linning's The First Book of Napoleon doesn't get any love around here? Last I heard from Chris Johnson, this unsung work is "currently fighting for #1 spot just behind The Koran." Yet no one here ever talks about it.
_Equality
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Equality »

Nevo wrote:
Themis wrote:Understandable. This book looks to be a gem that keeps on giving and will be a major pain in the ass to many apologetic arguments it dismantles. I suppose this is why some seem so dismissive of it.

Speaking of dismissive, how come Michael Linning's The First Book of Napoleon doesn't get any love around here? Last I heard from Chris Johnson, this unsung work is "currently fighting for #1 spot just behind The Koran." Yet no one here ever talks about it.

Start a thread on it. Maybe it will get to 68 pages and 31,000 views. I think there are many works identified by the Johnsons that will provide fertile ground for discussion. I don't think (believe it or not) that we have exhausted the yield from The Late War yet, but I think there might be interesting stuff in the Koran and the First Book of Napoleon--I just haven't had a chance to look at those yet (or much of The Late War for that matter).
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_Equality
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Equality »

Nevo wrote:
Equality wrote:It is true that the preface to the first edition of The Late War does not say that the author wrote in the faux biblical style so that schoolkids would increase their appreciation for the scriptures, but it is also true that the author stated that was his intention and the book was, in fact, marketed that way years before the Book of Mormon appeared, so I am not sure what "erroneous notion" you think you have corrected.

The erroneous notion is the idea that Hunt wrote The Late War in pseudo-biblical style to increase schoolkids' appreciation of the Bible. That's not accurate. As the 1816 preface makes clear, Hunt's original intended reader was "the public"—not schoolchildren. There is no evidence that he wrote in "the ancient historical style" for pedagogic purposes. That was an afterthought.

Does any of this matter? Perhaps not. I'm just being argumentative.

Ok. Point taken. I will substitute the word "public" for "schoolkids" the next time I write about the author's reason for writing in the pseudo-biblical style. That the work was later marketed for use in classrooms, though, is interesting, as schools could have been one of the targets for sales of the Book of Mormon. Right?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_Gadianton
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Gadianton »

Water Dog wrote:A: I have found proof that elephants existed in ancient America, dating to time periods, and locations, that fit with the Book of Mormon. I now present you with a list of references from peer-reviewed sources, independent researchers, which discuss these findings, elephant remains which have been found, where they were found, in which manner they were found, and what time period they dated to.

C: Sorry, that analysis hasn't been peer reviewed and cited by others.

A: I just explained this is all peer-reviewed research accepted in the respective fields of study.


Yeah, it sounds like you're having difficulty accepting it but indeed, the bold above is a real problem for apologetics. If you read Beastie's lengthy response -- hey, you asked for critics to "go read Sorenson" so don't just blow her off now -- you'll see how citing peer-reviewed sources can be deceiving.

Your example is contrived. You're saying, "If a critic says there were elephants and an apologist cites peer-reviewed articles showing elephants, you're saying the apologist citation must first be peer-reviewed before taken seriously, that's crazy!"

Think in more general terms. The world of archeology has never had any interest in the Book of Mormon. Mormon apologists to my knowledge have not tried to publish articles on Book of Mormon archeology and geography in mainstream journals. Why haven't they, if the evidence is so good?

I remember Hugh Nibley saying he wouldn't touch Book of Mormon geography with a ten foot pole. If Brant Gardner's work is correct, then entire discussions over whether this animal or that material was in the Book of Mormon go to the dust bin. Bill Hamblin once had a post pinned to the top of MDDB for months, and critics were banned if they tried to respond to it, arguing that we shouldn't expect much in the way of direct evidence for the Book of Mormon because the population was so small and the civilization overrun by outsiders. Who is going to carry Sorenson's torch? Why aren't there BYU grad students out digging up Zarahemla? If anything, it seems even BYU has distanced itself from the pursuit of Book of Mormon history. I remember as a missionary, a missionary who had studied most of the FARMS material available at the time, discussing Book of Mormon evidence with a fellow missionary whose father was a professional archeologist, a man who apparently spent so much time digging in South America and Mexico that he developed skin cancer on his forearms. I was eager to get the inside scoop on what to study next, and this missionary told me that his father, allegedly a TBM, had no interest in Book of Mormon archeology, had not read books on Book of Mormon archeology, and would not discuss the subject with anyone, becoming irritated with members who came to him wanting his opinion.

So yeah, mainstream peer-review is an issue, but let's not kid ourselves here that the equivalent level of work exists in Sorenson or that there is a serious internal research paradigm where faithful Mormon scholars are slowly getting the puzzle put together. At any rate, if you are really interested in responses to Sorenson specifically, Beastie's website should keep you busy.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Kishkumen »

It looks like Nevo is still disturbed by the LW.

It's understandable.
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