Bazooka wrote: So why does your God just stand by and let it happen?
It is part of a much larger plan which may affect both the perpetrator, the victim, and others connected to both.
So, knowing this, why would you intervene and spoil God's plan for the perpatrator, the victim and those connected to them? Surely it is therefore better to let God's plan take its course even though He has decided some innocent kid being sexually abused is worth allowing as a means to an end?
*by the way, if your God allows the sexual abuse of innocent children then He isn't a God I want anything to do with.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
LittleNipper wrote:Sorry, but you are only demonstrating your own beliefs and they do not reflect the Bible. I believe that the entire Universe is likely only 10 thousand years old and that the Flood likely happened about 6000 years ago at the most. The Lord spread out the Universe like a garment. The only credible Christian belief is that GOD created the Universe and that He did this in one week and not millions and billions of years. And I might add that that is the ONLY ORIGINAL Christian belief. Anything else is not biblical.
Nipper ,who elected you Pope to demand other Christians believe this particular minority opinion?
LittleNipper wrote:Sorry, but you are only demonstrating your own beliefs and they do not reflect the Bible. I believe that the entire Universe is likely only 10 thousand years old and that the Flood likely happened about 6000 years ago at the most. The Lord spread out the Universe like a garment. The only credible Christian belief is that GOD created the Universe and that He did this in one week and not millions and billions of years. And I might add that that is the ONLY ORIGINAL Christian belief. Anything else is not biblical.
Thus not only reconfirming your incredible arrogance, but demonstrating that you know next to nothing about original Christian belief, and that you are not the slightest bit interested in improving your knowledge about anything whatsoever--especially scientific reality. You are apparently convinced that you already know everything you need to know and that you could not possibly be wrong about anything. Huckelberry's question is very apropos. What makes you the authoritative arbiter of what is or is not original Christian belief, or what the Bible really says?
I freely and unashamedly admit that many, perhaps most (but not all) of my beliefs do not reflect the Bible. However, only a minority of your fellow Christians would agree that your own extreme and highly ignorant views fully reflect the Bible. I still see not the slightest credible justification for supposing that the Bible is any less the work of fallible human beings than anything else that has ever been written, and plenty of extremely compelling evidence for concluding that it could not possibly be the product of an all-wise and omnipotent deity.
That "GOD created the Universe and that He did this in one week and not millions and billions of years" is far from the only original Christian belief, but it is by far the least credible Christian belief in the light of the enormous body of knowledge carefully and sometimes painfully accumulated by honest, hardworking astronomers and other scientists, both religious and secular, in the millennia that have elapsed since the time of Christ.
As for your claim that it is "the only credible Christian belief", it is refreshing to hear that you now admit that the belief that Jesus is the literal son of God, who died for our sins and was resurrected three days later is not a credible Christian belief, or that Christ performed all those miracles is not a credible belief. I am dismayed to learn, however, that you no longer think that the importance of treating and loving one's neighbor as oneself is a credible Christian belief. Perhaps you never really did believe the latter. That would explain your lack of moral outrage over the horrible atrocities committed by "'God's Chosen People" in the Old Testament and lack of sympathy for their unfortunate victims.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:39 am, edited 7 times in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Bazooka wrote: So why does your God just stand by and let it happen?
It is part of a much larger plan which may affect both the perpetrator, the victim, and others connected to both.
Bazooka wrote:So, knowing this, why would you intervene and spoil God's plan for the perpetrator[sic], the victim and those connected to them? Surely it is therefore better to let God's plan take its course even though He has decided some innocent kid being sexually abused is worth allowing as a means to an end?
*by the way, if your God allows the sexual abuse of innocent children then He isn't a God I want anything to do with.
Amen to that!
Of course, probably nothing in heaven or on earth will ever convince LittleNipper that he could be wrong about anything. I imagine that if God himself appeared to him in a blaze of glory and majesty and tried to correct his misconceptions, he would probably just assume that it was only Satan pretending to be God.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
LittleNipper wrote:Sorry, but you are only demonstrating your own beliefs and they do not reflect the Bible. I believe that the entire Universe is likely only 10 thousand years old and that the Flood likely happened about 6000 years ago at the most. The Lord spread out the Universe like a garment. The only credible Christian belief is that GOD created the Universe and that He did this in one week and not millions and billions of years. And I might add that that is the ONLY ORIGINAL Christian belief. Anything else is not biblical.
Nipper, who elected you Pope to demand other Christians believe this particular minority opinion?
I only believe what the Bible says. I didn't write the book.
LittleNipper wrote:Sorry, but you are only demonstrating your own beliefs and they do not reflect the Bible. I believe that the entire Universe is likely only 10 thousand years old and that the Flood likely happened about 6000 years ago at the most. The Lord spread out the Universe like a garment. The only credible Christian belief is that GOD created the Universe and that He did this in one week and not millions and billions of years. And I might add that that is the ONLY ORIGINAL Christian belief. Anything else is not biblical.
Thus not only reconfirming your incredible arrogance, but demonstrating that you know next to nothing about original Christian belief, and that you are not the slightest bit interested in improving your knowledge about anything whatsoever--especially scientific reality. You are apparently convinced that you already know everything you need to know and that you could not possibly be wrong about anything. Huckelberry's question is very apropos. What makes you the authoritative arbiter of what is or is not original Christian belief, or what the Bible really says?
I freely and unashamedly admit that many, perhaps most [b](but not all) of my beliefs do not reflect the Bible[/b]. However, only a minority of your fellow Christians would agree that your own extreme and highly ignorant views fully reflect the Bible. I still see not the slightest credible justification for supposing that the Bible is any less the work of fallible human beings than anything else that has ever been written, and plenty of extremely compelling evidence for concluding that it could not possibly be the product of an all-wise and omnipotent deity.
That "GOD created the Universe and that He did this in one week and not millions and billions of years" is far from the only original Christian belief, but it is by far the least credible Christian belief in the light of the enormous body of knowledge carefully and sometimes painfully accumulated by honest, hardworking astronomers and other scientists, both religious and secular, in the millennia that have elapsed since the time of Christ.
As for your claim that it is "the only credible Christian belief", it is refreshing to hear that you now admit that the belief that Jesus is the literal son of God, who died for our sins and was resurrected three days later is not a credible Christian belief, or that Christ performed all those miracles is not a credible belief. I am dismayed to learn, however, that you no longer think that the importance of treating and loving one's neighbor as oneself is a credible Christian belief. Perhaps you never really did believe the latter. That would explain your lack of moral outrage over the horrible atrocities committed by "'God's Chosen People" in the Old Testament and lack of sympathy for their unfortunate victims.
•170-215 AD Mark Felix "Some men deny the existence of any Divine power. Others inquire daily as to whether or not one exists. Still others would construct the whole fabric of the universe by chance accidents and by random collision, fashioning it by the movement of atoms of different shapes." (M. Felix Octavius chap. 30 [Notice the term "atom" isn't a twentieth century invention, but a term coined by Greek philosophers.]) •181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "On the fourth day the luminaries came into existence. Since God has foreknowledge, he understood the nonsense of the foolish philosophers who were going to say that the things produced on earth come from the stars, so that they might set God aside. In order therefore that the truth might be demonstrated, plants and seeds came into existence before the stars. For what comes into existence later cannot cause what is prior to it" (To Autolycus 2:15). •181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "All the years from the creation of the world [to Theophilus's day] amount to a total of 5,698 years and the odd months and days. . . . [I]f even a chronological error has been committed by us, for example, of 50 or 100 or even 200 years, yet [there have] not [been] the thousands and tens of thousands, as Plato and Apollonius and other mendacious authors have hitherto written. And perhaps our knowledge of the whole number of the years is not quite accurate, because the odd months and days are not set down in the sacred books" (To Autolycus, 3:28-29). •234 AD Origen "The text said that `there was evening and there was morning'; it did not say `the first day,' but said `one day.' It is because there was not yet time before the world existed. But time begins to exist with the following days" (Homilies on Genesis). •234 AD Origen "And since he [the pagan Celsus] makes the statements about the `days of creation' ground of accusation--as if he understood them clearly and correctly, some of which elapsed before the creation of light and heaven, the sun and moon and stars, and some of them after the creation of these we shall only make this observation, that Moses must have forgotten that he had said a little before `that in six days the creation of the world had been finished' and that in consequence of this act of forgetfulness he subjoins to these words the following: `This is the book of the creation of man in the day when God made the heaven and the earth [Gen. 2:4]'" (Against Celsus 6:51). •234 AD Origen "And with regard to the creation of the light upon the first day . . . and of the [great] lights and stars upon the fourth . . . we have treated to the best of our ability in our notes upon Genesis, as well as in the foregoing pages, when we found fault with those who, taking the words in their apparent signification, said that the time of six days was occupied in the creation of the world" (ibid., 6:60). •260-330 AD Lactantius "Some people teach that the first men lived nomadic lives among the woods and plains. They were not united by any bond of speech or laws. Instead, they lived in caves and grottos, using leaves and grass for their beds. They were prey to the beasts and stronger animals. Eventually, those who had escaped, having been torn [by wild beasts] ... sought out the company of other men for protection. At first they communicated to each other by nods; then they tried elementary forms of speech. By attaching names to various objects, they little by little developed a system of speech." (Lactantius Institutes bk. 6, chap. 10) •370 AD Basil The Great "`And there was evening and morning, one day.' Why did he say `one' and not `first'? . . . He said `one' because he was defining the measure of day and night . . . since twenty-four hours fill up the interval of one day" (). •370 AD Ambrose of Milan "Scripture established a law that twenty-four hours, including both day and night, should be given the name of day only, as if one were to say the length of one day is twenty-four hours in extent. . . . The nights in this reckoning are considered to be component parts ofthe days that are counted. Therefore, just as there is a single revolution of time, so there is but one day. There are many who call even a week one day, because it returns to itself, just as one day does, and one might say seven times revolves back on itself. Hence, Scripture appeals at times of an age of the world" (The Six Days Work 1:1-2). •408 AD Augustine "With the Scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the Scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 2:9). •408 AD Augustine "Seven days by our reckoning, after the model of the days of creation, make up a week. By the passage of such weeks time rolls on, and in these weeks one day is constituted by the course of the sun from its rising to its setting; but we must bear in mind that these days indeed recall the days of creation, but without in any way being really similar to them" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 4:27). •AD Augustine "They [pagans] are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of [man as] many thousands of years, though reckoning by the sacred writings we find that not 6,000 years have yet passed" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 12:10).
LittleNipper wrote: I only believe what the Bible says. I didn't write the book.
That is precisely why you are so appallingly ignorant! But it is actually even worse than that. You only believe what you are willing to agree that the Bible says. Even many of your fellow Christians don't agree that the Bible really says or means some of the things you insist that it does.
However, if you truly believe only what the Bible says, why bother to quote Origen, St. Augustine and all those other extra-biblical writings you quoted by early Christian theologians? Why would you need to quote any of their writings if the Bible itself is the only complete, authoritative and inerrant word of God as you insist it is?
You remind me of the dogmatic, ignorant and fanatical Christians who systematically tried to destroy all the priceless accumulated treasures of ancient human thought and culture in the Great library of Alexandria by using the rationale that anything found in those books not also found in the Bible, must be of Satan and ought to be destroyed, and anything found in those books also found in the Bible, wasn't needed because we already have the Bible.
Ignorant, fanatical Muslims used the same rationale when razing what was left of the Great Library, except they mentioned the Q'ran instead of the Bible.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
LittleNipper wrote: I only believe what the Bible says. I didn't write the book.
That is precisely why you are so appallingly ignorant! But it is actually even worse than that. You only believe what you are willing to agree that the Bible says. Even many of your fellow Christians don't agree that the Bible really says or means some of the things you insist that it does.
However, if you truly believe only what the Bible says, why bother to quote Origen, St. Augustine and all those other extra-biblical writings you quoted by early Christian theologians? Why would you need to quote any of their writings if the Bible itself is the only complete, authoritative and inerrant word of God as you insist it is?
You remind me of the dogmatic, ignorant and fanatical Christians who systematically tried to destroy all the priceless accumulated treasures of ancient human thought and culture in the Great library of Alexandria by using the rationale that anything found in those books not also found in the Bible, must be of Satan and ought to be destroyed, and anything found in those books also found in the Bible, wasn't needed because we already have the Bible.
Ignorant, fanatical Muslims used the same rationale when razing what was left of the Great Library, except they mentioned the Q'ran instead of the Bible.
I never burned a Museum or library. In fact Christians are the ones who founded schools, universities, libraries, hospitals, homes for women and orphanages when nonesuch was heard of throughout the "Moslem" inspired /driven kingdoms. The RED Cross has been around a lot longer than the RED Crescent. I was merely pointing out an error that the early church did not believe in a 6 day creation, etc... When I quoted those learned men. They agreed with the Bible and not you nor "modern" theories. The truth must really be upsetting you, because I cannot imagine calling someone I was witnessing to "appallingly ignorant, stupid, or inferior. I feel that "your Christian" friends may just be making excuses for their behavior or beliefs and need to bend the Bible to fit their lifestyles or the "educated" determinations of this age. However, there is enough evidence among Creationists to support the Bible and trouble evolutionist and uniformitarians.
Joshua 17:1-18 The Land Given to the Half-Tribe of Manasseh (Joseph’s oldest son): The clan of Machir (Manasseh’s oldest son who was the father of Gilead) had already been given the land of Gilead and Bashan on the east side of the Jordan River, being great warriors. The land on the west side of the Jordan was given to the clans of Abiezer, Helek, Asriel, Shechem, Shemida, and Hepher.
Hepher’s son Zelophehad (grandson of Gilead, great-grandson of Machir, and great-great-grandson of Manasseh) had no sons. He had only five daughters whose names were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milcah, and Tirzah. These women came to Eleazar the priest and to Joshua and the Israeli leaders and reminded them, “The Lord told Moses that we were to receive as much property as the men of our tribe.” [THE WOULD SEEM TO BE AN EARLY EXAMPLE OF EQUAL RIGHTS FOR WOMEN]
The Lord had commanded [b]through Moses that these five women were to be given an inheritance along with their five great-uncles, and the total inheritance came to ten sections of land (in addition to the land of Gilead and Bashan across the Jordan River).
The northern boundary of the tribe of Manasseh extended southward from the border of Asher to Michmethath ---- east of Shechem. On the south the boundary went from Michmethath to the spring of Tappuah. (The land of Tappuah belonged to Manasseh, but the city of Tappuah, on the border of Manasseh’s land, belonged to the tribe of Ephraim.) From the spring of Tappuah the border of Manasseh followed the north bank of Kanah Brook to the Mediterranean Sea. (Several cities south of the brook belonged to the tribe of Ephraim, though they were located in Manasseh’s territory.) The land south of the brook and as far west as the Mediterranean Sea was assigned to Ephraim, and the land north of the brook and east of the sea went to Manasseh. Manasseh’s northern boundary was the territory of Asher, and the eastern boundary was the territory of Issachar.
The half-tribe of Manasseh was also alloted the following cities, which were situated in the areas assigned to Issachar and Asher: Beth-shean, Ibleam, Dor, En-dor, Taanach, Megiddo (where there are the three cliffs), with their respective villages. Since the descendants of Manasseh could not drive out the people who lived in those cities, the Canaanites remained. Later on, however, when the Israelis became strong enough, they forced the Canaanites to work as slaves.
These two tribes of Joseph came to Joshua and asked, “Why have you given us only one portion of land when the Lord has given us such large populations?” “If the hill country of Ephraim is not large enough for you,” Joshua replied, “and if you are able to do it, you may clear out the forest land where the Perizzites and Rephaim live.” The tribes of Joseph added, “The Canaanites in the lowlands around Beth-shean and the valley of Jezreel have iron chariots and are too strong for us.”
“Then," Joshua replied, "you also have the mountain forests, and since you are such a large, strong tribe you will surely be able to clear it all and live there. I’m sure you can drive out the Canaanites from the valleys, too, even though they are strong and have iron chariots.”
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And the lot is for the tribe of Manasseh (for he [is] first-born of Joseph), for Machir first-born of Manasseh, father of Gilead, for he hath been a man of war, and his are Gilead and Bashan.
2 And there is for the sons of Manasseh who are left, for their families; for the sons of Abiezer, and for the sons of Helek, and for the sons of Asriel, and for the sons of Shechem, and for the sons of Hepher, and for the sons of Shemida; these [are] the children of Manasseh son of Joseph -- the males -- by their families.
3 As to Zelophehad, son of Hepher, son of Gilead, son of Machir, son of Manasseh, he hath no children except daughters, and these [are] the names of his daughters: Mahlah, and Noah, Hoglah, Milcah, and Tirzah,
4 and they draw near before Eleazar the priest, and before Joshua son of Nun, and before the princes, saying, `Jehovah commanded Moses to give to us an inheritance in the midst of our brethren;' and he giveth to them, at the command of Jehovah, an inheritance in the midst of the brethren of their father.
5 And ten portions fall [to] Manasseh, apart from the land of Gilead and Bashan, which [are] beyond the Jordan;
6 for the daughters of Manasseh have inherited an inheritance in the midst of his sons, and the land of Gilead hath been to the sons of Manasseh who are left.
7 And the border of Manasseh is from Asher to Michmethah, which [is] on the front of Shechem, and the border hath gone on unto the right, unto the inhabitants of En-Tappuah.
8 To Manasseh hath been the land of Tappuah, and Tappuah unto the border of Manasseh is to the sons of Ephraim.
9 And the border hath come down [to] the brook of Kanah, southward of the brook; these cities of Ephraim [are] in the midst of the cities of Manasseh, and the border of Manasseh [is] on the north of the brook, and its outgoings are at the sea.
10 Southward [is] to Ephraim and northward to Manasseh, and the sea is his border, and in Asher they meet on the north, and in Issachar on the east.
11 And Manasseh hath in Issachar and in Asher, Beth-Shean and its towns, and Ibleam and its towns, and the inhabitants of Dor and its towns, and the inhabitants of En-Dor and its towns, and the inhabitants of Taanach and its towns, and the inhabitants of Megiddo and its towns, three counties.
12 And the sons of Manasseh have not been able to occupy these cities, and the Canaanite is desirous to dwell in this land,
13 and it cometh to pass when the sons of Israel have been strong, that they put the Canaanite to tribute, and have not utterly dispossessed him.
14 And the sons of Joseph speak with Joshua, saying, `Wherefore hast thou given to me an inheritance -- one lot and one portion, and I a numerous people? hitherto hath Jehovah blessed me.'
15 And Joshua saith unto them, `If thou [art] a numerous people, go up for thee to the forest, then thou hast prepared for thee there, in the land of the Perizzite, and of the Rephaim, when mount Ephraim hath been narrow for thee.'
16 And the sons of Joseph say, `The hill is not found to us, and a chariot of iron [is] with every Canaanite who is dwelling in the land of the valley -- to him who [is] in Beth-Shean and its towns, and to him who [is] in the valley of Jezreel.'
17 And Joshua speaketh unto the house of Joseph, to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, `Thou [art] a numerous people, and hast great power; thou hast not one lot [only],
18 because the mountain is thine; because it [is] a forest -- thou hast prepared it, and its outgoings have been thine; because thou dost dispossess the Canaanite, though it hath chariots of iron -- though it [is] strong.'
Joshua 18:1-28 After the conquest—though seven of the tribes of Israel had not yet entered and conquered the land God had given them—all Israel gathered at Shiloh to set up the Tabernacle. Joshua asked how long will Israel wait before clearing out the people living in the land that the Lord your God had given to them? Joshua tells them to select three men from each tribe, and they will check out the unconquered territory and bring back a report of its size and natural divisions so that the land can be partitioned. The scouts will map that area into seven sections, and then Joshua will cast lots to decide which section will be assigned to each tribe. 7 However, the Levites won’t receive any land; they are priests of the Lord. That is their wonderful heritage. And of course the tribes of Gad and Reuben and the half-tribe of Manasseh won’t receive any more, for they already have land on the east side of the Jordan where Moses promised them that they could settle.
The scouts went out to map the country and to bring back their report to Joshua. They did as they were told and divided the entire territory into seven sections, listing the cities in each section. Then they returned to Joshua and the camp at Shiloh. There at the Tabernacle at Shiloh the Lord showed Joshua by the sacred lottery which tribe should have each section:
The section of land assigned to the families of the tribe of Benjamin lay between the territory previously assigned to the tribes of Judah and Joseph. The northern boundary began at the Jordan River, went north of Jericho, then west through the hill country and the wilderness of Beth-aven. From there the boundary went south to Luz (also called Bethel) and proceeded down to Ataroth-addar in the hill country south of Lower Beth-horon. At that point the border turned south, passing the mountain near Beth-horon and ending at the village of Kiriath-baal (sometimes called Kiriath-jearim), one of the cities of the tribe of Judah. This was the western boundary. The southern border ran from the edge of Kiriath-baal, over Mount Ephron to the spring of Naphtoah, and down to the base of the mountain beside the valley of Hinnom, north of the valley of Rephaim. From there it across the valley of Hinnom, and went south of the old city of Jerusalem where the Jebusites lived, and continued down to En-rogel. From En-rogel the boundary proceeded northeast to En-shemesh and on to Geliloth (opposite the slope of Adummim). Then it went down to the Stone of Bohan (who was a son of Reuben), It passed along the north edge of the Arabah. The border then went down into the Arabah, ran south past Beth-hoglah, and ended at the north bay of the Dead Sea—which is the southern end of the Jordan River. The eastern border was the Jordan River. This was the land assigned to the tribe of Benjamin. 26 cities were included in the land given to the tribe of Benjamin: Jericho, Beth-hoglah, Emek-keziz, Beth-arabah, Zimaraim, Bethel, Avvim, Parah, Ophrah, Chephar-ammoni, Ophni, Geba, Gibeon, Ramah, Beeroth, Mizpeh, Chephirah, Mozah, Rekem, Irpeel, Taralah, Zela, Haeleph, Jebus (or Jerusalem), Gibeah, and Kiriath-jearim. All of these cities and their surrounding communities were given to the tribe of Benjamin.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And all the company of the sons of Israel are assembled [at] Shiloh, and they cause the tent of meeting to tabernacle there, and the land hath been subdued before them.
2 And there are left among the sons of Israel who have not shared their inheritance, seven tribes,
3 and Joshua saith unto the sons of Israel, `Till when are ye remiss to go in to possess the land which He hath given to you, Jehovah, God of your fathers?
4 Give for you three men for a tribe, and I send them, and they rise and go up and down through the land, and describe it according to their inheritance, and come in unto me,
5 and they have divided it into seven portions -- Judah doth stay by its border on the south, and the house of Joseph do stay by their border on the north --
6 and ye describe the land [in] seven portions, and have brought [it] in unto me hither, and I have cast for you a lot here before Jehovah our God;
7 for there is no portion to the Levites in your midst, for the priesthood of Jehovah [is] their inheritance, and Gad, and Reuben, and the half of the tribe of Manasseh received their inheritance beyond the Jordan eastward, which Moses servant of Jehovah gave to them.'
8 And the men rise and go; and Joshua commandeth those who are going to describe the land, saying, `Go, and walk up and down through the land, and describe it, and turn back unto me, and here I cast for you a lot before Jehovah in Shiloh.'
9 And the men go, and pass over through the land, and describe it by cities, in seven portions, on a book, and they come in unto Joshua, unto the camp, [at] Shiloh.
10 And Joshua casteth for them a lot in Shiloh before Jehovah, and there Joshua apportioneth the land to the sons of Israel, according to their divisions.
11 And a lot goeth up [for] the tribe of the sons of Benjamin, for their families; and the border of their lot goeth out between the sons of Judah and the sons of Joseph.
12 And the border is to them at the north side from the Jordan, and the border hath gone up unto the side of Jericho on the north, and gone up through the hill-country westward, and its outgoings have been at the wilderness of Beth-Aven;
13 and the border hath gone over thence to Luz, unto the side of Luz (it [is] Beth-El) southward, and the border hath gone down [to] Atroth-Addar, by the hill that [is] on the south of the lower Beth-Horon;
14 and the border hath been marked out, and hath gone round to the corner of the sea southward, from the hill which [is] at the front of Beth-Horon southward, and its outgoings have been unto Kirjath-Baal (it [is] Kirjath-Jearim), a city of the sons of Judah: this [is] the west quarter.
15 And the south quarter [is] from the end of Kirjath-Jearim, and the border hath gone out westward, and gone out unto the fountain of the waters of Nephtoah;
16 and the border hath come down unto the extremity of the hill which [is] on the front of the valley of the son of Hinnom, which [is] in the valley of the Rephaim northward, and hath gone down the valley of Hinnom unto the side of Jebusi southward, and gone down [to] En-Rogel,
17 and hath been marked out on the north, and gone out to En-Shemesh, and gone out unto Geliloth, which [is] over-against the ascent of Adummim, and gone down [to] the stone of Bohan son of Reuben,
18 and passed over unto the side over-against Arabah northward, and gone down to Arabah;
19 and the border hath passed over unto the side of Beth-Hoglah northward, and the outgoings of the border have been unto the north bay of the salt sea, unto the south extremity of the Jordan; this [is] the south border;
20 and the Jordan doth border it at the east quarter; this [is] the inheritance of the sons of Benjamin, by its borders round about, for their families.
21 And the cities for the tribe of the sons of Benjamin, for their families, have been Jericho, and Beth-Hoglah, and the valley of Keziz,
22 and Beth-Arabah, Zemaraim, and Beth-El,
23 and Avim, and Parah, and Ophrah,
24 and Chephar-Haammonai, and Ophni, and Gaba; twelve cities and their villages.
25 Gibeon, and Ramah, and Beeroth,
26 and Mizpeh, and Chephirah, and Mozah,
27 and Rekem, and Irpeel, and Taralah,
28 and Zelah, Eleph, and Jebusi (it [is] Jerusalem), Gibeath, Kirjath: fourteen cities and their villages. This [is] the inheritance of the sons of Benjamin, for their families.