Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

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_Roger
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Roger »

robuchan:

I'm interested in this discussion but getting lost. What do you mean by Smith's discovery narrative of 1838?


I'm rusty. Don't remember at the moment if what I cite below is the oldest version of this. I suspect not. But at least it helps answer your question.

Joseph Smith - History

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.5-13?lang=eng

51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Tim the Enchanter
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Tim the Enchanter »

Roger wrote:Fair enough, but can you provide evidence that they never met? What basis is there to definitely conclude that their paths never crossed prior to 1830? If there is no solid basis then shouldn't my opinion that they did meet at some point at least carry as much weight as your opinion that they didn't?


No. If you are making the assertion that they met, the onus is on you to provide evidence that supports this assertion.

Can you prove that you and I never met? If not, does that make it equally likely that we have met if you can't prove we haven't?
There are some who call me...Tim.
_Nevo
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Nevo »

Roger wrote:- In addition, what would happen if we subsequently discovered that there is a story built in to the narrative of the work Kish cites about how that manuscript was discovered, with its author pondering the ancient inhabitants of the continent as he walks up a hill, notes an unusual rock, locates a lever to dislodge it and retrieves an ancient manuscript that he himself subsequently translates into English? Would that be relevant?

Not necessarily.

I don't think the stories are as similar as you are making them out to be. Spalding's narrator doesn't walk up a hill, for one thing. He treads on a flat stone while walking near the remains of an ancient fort along the west bank of the Conneaut River. When he pries up the stone he discovers an "artificial cave" about 8 feet deep. He descends into the "cave" and notices a "door" in the wall. Behind the door is a clay box housing 28 pages of parchment written in Latin. In Joseph Smith's story, he's directed by an angel to a hill where he locates gold plates, Urim and Thummin, and a breastplate in a stone box beneath a "stone of considerable size." In both stories an ancient manuscript is discovered in a cavity beneath a stone, but that's about where the similarity ends.

Fictional works framed as discovered manuscripts were not uncommon in this era. As one scholar has recently noted, "the discovered manuscript [was] a nearly ubiquitous trope in Gothic fiction for more than two hundred years" (source; cf. Grant Hardy, Understanding the Book of Mormon: A Reader's Guide [New York: Oxford University Press, 2010], 121: "Gothic novels of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries offered a profusion of fictions framed as discovered-manuscript stories, including works by Hugh Walpole, Ann Radcliffe, Charles Maturin, and Edgar Allan Poe"). Eran Shalev notes that The Fifteenth Chapter of the Chronicles, a pseudobiblical text published in New York's Broome County Patriot in 1812 "described a supposedly ancient manuscript whose excavator, 'Ben Saidi,' appealed to the newspaper's editor to present his extraordinary find to the paper's readers. . . . Ben Saidi's 'ancient' manuscript was 'found in the hollow of a tree, where it has probably been deposited for ages'" (Eran Shalev, American Zion: The Old Testament as a Political Text from the Revolution to the Civil War [New Haven: Yale University Press, 2013], 109).

Given the common idea of a manuscript hidden up by ancient Americans, it's not surprising that both Spalding and Smith claimed to have discovered manuscripts in man-made holes in the ground disguised by a large stone (and not, say, in a library or an old church). Nothing requires us to conclude that Joseph Smith must have relied on Spalding for his discovery narrative. He could easily have come up with the story independently.
_Roger
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Roger »

Hi Tim:

No. If you are making the assertion that they met, the onus is on you to provide evidence that supports this assertion.


I agree that issue here is the difficulty in proving a negative. That was my point. Nevo stated that he does not believe that Smith and Cowdery ever met, to which I responded fair enough but I asked if he could back up his belief that they never met with supporting evidence. The answer, as you illustrate, is, no, he can't.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Tim the Enchanter
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Tim the Enchanter »

Roger wrote:Hi Tim:

No. If you are making the assertion that they met, the onus is on you to provide evidence that supports this assertion.


I agree that issue here is the difficulty in proving a negative. That was my point. Nevo stated that he does not believe that Smith and Cowdery ever met, to which I responded fair enough but I asked if he could back up his belief that they never met with supporting evidence. The answer, as you illustrate, is, no, he can't.


But that doesn't make it equally likely that they did meet if he can't prove they didn't, which I believe was the point you tried to make.
There are some who call me...Tim.
_Roger
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Roger »

Nevo:

Not necessarily.


Why not? I think you might already be inserting a bias against Spalding/Rigdon into the scenario I just laid out for the case Kish is making. I'm asking you IF these factors could legitimately be added to the parallels Kish has already posted, then would that not add to their weight?

I don't think the stories are as similar as you are making them out to be. Spalding's narrator doesn't walk up a hill, for one thing. He treads on a flat stone while walking near the remains of an ancient fort along the west bank of the Conneaut River.


Which, if I remember correctly from my excursion to the area a few years ago, sits on a hill. I'll grant, however, that Spalding doesn't specifically mention a hill.

When he pries up the stone he discovers an "artificial cave" about 8 feet deep. He descends into the "cave" and notices a "door" in the wall.


It is interesting, in light of this, that some of the earliest descriptions of the Hill Cumorah have it being hollow inside and, if my memory serves correctly, even having been explored by early Mormons like Brigham Young. But yes, again, there are certainly differences between Spalding's story and Smith's. If there were no differences, the connection would be obvious.

Behind the door is a clay box housing 28 pages of parchment written in Latin. In Joseph Smith's story, he's directed by an angel to a hill where he locates gold plates, Urim and Thummin, and a breastplate in a stone box beneath a "stone of considerable size." In both stories an ancient manuscript is discovered in a cavity beneath a stone, but that's about where the similarity ends.


Not necessarily. Both works are eventually translated into English by their discoverers. Both discoverers use a lever that happened to be available in order to dislodge the unusual stone. Both works tell the tale of the ancient inhabitants of the North American continent complete with warring tribes who use similarly implausible battle tactics. Both authors encourage their readers to ponder the truthfulness of the claims being made by the book.

Fictional works framed as discovered manuscripts were not uncommon in this era.

...snip...

Given the common idea of a manuscript hidden up by ancient Americans, it's not surprising that both Spalding and Smith claimed to have discovered manuscripts in man-made holes in the ground disguised by a large stone (and not, say, in a library or an old church). Nothing requires us to conclude that Joseph Smith must have relied on Spalding for his discovery narrative. He could easily have come up with the story independently.


This is all well and good, however, you are glossing over the relevant factor. I agree that "it's not surprising that both Spalding and Smith claimed to have discovered manuscripts in man-made holes in the ground disguised by a large stone (and not, say, in a library or an old church)." I also agree that "He could easily have come up with the story independently." That notion begins to weaken, however, when we consider the timeline coupled with the question of whether or not Joseph needed to make anything up in the first place.

In other words, if Joseph was telling the truth, then his story is remarkably similar to Solomon Spalding's - noting, of course, the differences you point out. In that case, the similarities in the stories are merely coincidental. But you've stated the assertion from the skeptic's point of view: "Nothing requires us to conclude that Joseph Smith must have relied on Spalding for his discovery narrative. He could easily have come up with the story independently."

If we look at this from the perspective of Joseph needing to "come up with [a] story independently" then we have to ask, why did the story he came up with resemble Spalding's? Coincidence? Maybe, but how coincidental is it when Smith's story comes out years after there had already been claims made by seemingly credible people of a definite connection between the writings of the two men? In other words, when the claims of a connection between Spalding's writings and Smith's writings were first made, no one was suggesting that the discovery narrative parallels were the basis for that claim because those parallels were not yet in existence - at least not in written form.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Equality
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Equality »

Roger wrote:It is interesting, in light of this, that some of the earliest descriptions of the Hill Cumorah have it being hollow inside and, if my memory serves correctly, even having been explored by early Mormons like Brigham Young.


Yup. See this classic blog post from Lunar Quaker: FARMS, Geographical Mitosis, and Cumorah's Cave.
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_Roger
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Roger »

Tim:

But that doesn't make it equally likely that they did meet if he can't prove they didn't, which I believe was the point you tried to make.


Perhaps. I'm not sure that's entirely logical, however. They did live at the same time. They did in fact meet at least by 1830. So its not a question of the likelihood of two random people either meeting or not, it's a question of timing and who is telling the truth. Nevo is inclined to believe any testimony that suggests they did not meet until 1830 and I am inclined to be open to testimony and other evidence that suggests they met before 1830.

It's merely a matter of who you want to believe and who's testimony you want to reject. But the question here is not one of likelihood. Its a question of whether or not Nevo's disbelief that they did not meet carries more weight than my belief that they did. Despite the fact that we all agree that Nevo is a nice guy, I don't see how it can. That was my point.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Tim the Enchanter
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Tim the Enchanter »

Roger wrote:Tim:

But that doesn't make it equally likely that they did meet if he can't prove they didn't, which I believe was the point you tried to make.


Perhaps. I'm not sure that's entirely logical, however. They did live at the same time. They did in fact meet at least by 1830. So its not a question of the likelihood of two random people either meeting or not, it's a question of timing and who is telling the truth. Nevo is inclined to believe any testimony that suggests they did not meet until 1830 and I am inclined to be open to testimony and other evidence that suggests they met before 1830.

It's merely a matter of who you want to believe and who's testimony you want to reject. But the question here is not one of likelihood. Its a question of whether or not Nevo's disbelief that they did not meet carries more weight than my belief that they did. Despite the fact that we all agree that Nevo is a nice guy, I don't see how it can. That was my point.


Let's play a game. I am asserting that you and I have met. We live at the same time. We have some association with the same church. We may live within a few hundred miles of each other. There may be people we know in common (Mormonism is a small world). Based on these facts and reasonable speculations, I am asserting that you and I have met.

Now let's say Nevo asserts that you and I have never met, but he offers no evidence to support his assertion that we have not met.

Would you say that Nevo and I have an equal shot at being right? Does that sound logical to you?

I disagree about it not being a question of likelihood. Almost everything is a question of likelihood. Possibility and probability are two very different things.
There are some who call me...Tim.
_Roger
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Re: Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

Post by _Roger »

Hi Tim:

Would you say that Nevo and I have an equal shot at being right? Does that sound logical to you?


As long as one of the options is not so grossly more likely than the other option, I'm not sure what good it is to conclude which option is more likely. In the first place, there are a lot of additional factors in the question regarding whether Sidney and Joseph knew each other before 1830 than have been mentioned so far, although, I confess I do not wish to get into citing every single example on this thread since it's been discussed before and is really off the topic at hand.

However, having said that, it seems to me that at the very least you've demonstrated the point I was making... that is the positive assertion (they met) is generally easier to support than the negative (they did not meet) and, given that, my belief that they did in fact meet should at least carry as much weight as Nevo's belief that they did not - which, if correct, means that the whole thing is a wash.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
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