Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_No Mas Mentiras]

I am reticent to give the full details as I expect clever responses. I have had numerous experiences which I would describe as being very similar to those described in Enos in the Book of Mormon. I have had thoughts appear in my mind which were like hearing a voice. It wasn't through my auditory system though, more like how they show information being downloaded into someone's brain in the Matrix. I don't know how else to describe it, suddenly knowledge just appeared, thoughts I had never had, facts I had never (to my recollection) acquired anywhere else. That in itself could be rationalized away, and I recognize this, but in many instances I later had the truth of this knowledge verified elsewhere.

For example in one instance I received a very clear message that I needed to go somewhere, literally to a specific address which I had never been to before. To an unknown address in an unknown part of town for a completely unknown reason. And I didn't even know the address, but in my mind I saw a picture of the location, of the specific apartment. Just as if you remember a place which you've been to before, you can picture it in your mind. I saw such an image but didn't know exactly where it was, what the address was, but I knew approximately where in town it would be from the environment, and this was in a city with over a million people, which is important because the statistical chances of everything that followed happening by pure chance is simply impossible. I felt that there was someone distressed at this location that needed help. I had no idea what that meant at all. So I went to this approximate location and searched around until I found the building I had pictured in my mind. There it was, just as I had seen it in my head, and I had never been there before. I went, knocked, and found someone very distressed. A man, who happened to be an inactive church member who hadn't been to church in decades and was baptized in some other city, wasn't in our records, and he was dying from a terminal illness. Earlier that day he knelt down and prayed for the first time in years for help to be sent. A few hours later I arrived. These were his words. I gave him a blessing. This was many years ago now. I've long since left the area but from what I understand this man is healthy and doing well and has been back in the church ever since. I think his wife may have also joined, but I'm not entirely sure about that. The story of her is pretty interesting too.

In one case I had a very vivid series of dreams. This was before going on a mission and while I was wrestling with my status in the church. This is what I would consider my conversion witness, the big booming answer I got in response to Moroni's promise. I went through a very exhaustive conversion process, perhaps a re-conversion process, where I went around visiting lots of churches, studying various religions, and arguing with people like you online. And I can genuinely say that I didn't want to stay with the church, I had other interests. Long story short I went through a very long process of prayer which spanned months, around a year, where I would pray pretty regularly, almost daily, for some kind of witness and got nothing back. At some point I realized that I didn't actually want an answer. It was a very subtle thing that took time for me to realize within myself. I was not consciously making this decision, but was nonetheless at a subconscious level. I concluded this wasn't a good attitude and changed my attitude dramatically into one where I seriously wanted to know and was willing to bear the responsibility of attaining that knowledge. The nature of my prayers changed. Immediately following this I had a series of dreams which were extremely vivid, like none I had ever had before, similar to the feelings I would later have with knowledge appearing in my brain as previously described. They just didn't feel like normal dreams. Content-wise, they were like watching my future. And honestly after this happened I still wasn't totally sure this was a witness. It was really different and immediately recognized it as a possible answer, but I still sought to rationalize it. It could have just been a dream, I had no "proof." Almost immediately after this I received my patriarchal blessing, within a few days. It was pure coincidence and had happened to be scheduled at this time. I got my patriarchal blessing later than is typical. The blessing was essentially a word for word match with what I witnessed in my dreams. He was describing the exact same story with words. I had not told anybody about my dreams. Nobody, literally nobody, was aware of my spiritual endeavor studying the scriptures and praying, the dreams, or any of it. Nobody came to my blessing with me. But later that day when I returned home my mother remarked that I looked as though I had seen a ghost. Little did she know, that is quite in fact what happened. And it was many years, not even until after my mission, before I told any of my family about this experience. And I know how some will respond, they will say I found my dream in the blessing. And I get how it's easy to draw that conclusion from the outside, but this really isn't the case. Had you experienced it, you would not feel that way. And I'm not going to post the text of my blessing online or get into those details. What I will say though is that in general it is very different from other blessings I have seen. I saw a lot of other blessings during my mission, many Elders would kind of compare. Although I never did let anybody read mine, but many were pretty open to let me see theirs. I've also seen many blessings from various members of my family who are also in the church, and it's very different. Most of the blessings I've seen are pretty vague and similar. Mine is quite specific, very detailed, and it says some pretty bold things as well, the sort that are unlikely to come true and consequently could damage someone's testimony. And it's long, several pages.

I've had other experiences as well. I think these were the two most impressive though in the sense that I have literally zero rational explanation for them outside of divine inspiration. Some others I can attribute to possibly being mere coincidence, although I do not regard them in that way because of these experiences. The feeling I describe of knowledge suddenly just appearing in my mind has happened numerous times. I don't know how else to describe it, it's just a very different feeling. It doesn't feel like an idea or some random feeling in the traditional sense. By comparison the other thoughts or sensations I experience feel clouded in a sense. At any rate, I can't prove any of it, and don't expect anybody to take my word for it. Although I could present the distressed brother from the first experience I spoke of. He didn't experience things from my perspective, but he can confirm that I was a total stranger to him and just randomly showed up to his door as I described. It happened.

Perhaps I'm lying and just trolling this forum. Or maybe I'm crazy, although I've never had such a diagnosis. :)

So if someone has a reasonable explanation for these two experiences, I'm all ears.

Yep, when cornered with the tough challenge, the believer will fall back on appeals to emotion and spiritual "proof'.

I stand all amazed!

[_ludwigm]

In one case I had a very vivid series of dreams.

From the Vivid Dreams thread (2012.09.07 21:25:27 UTC+1):

From the page Tribute to Karinthy Frigyes:

"In my dream, I was two cats and I was playing with each other."

(+ "In humour, I know no joke.")

(viewtopic.php?p=633072#p633072)
.

So if someone has a reasonable explanation for these two experiences, I'm all ears.

"Who tells about his dream is a fool, and even crazier, who listens" (from the same thread)


.

[_beastie]

You're going to have to give a specific example. I admit I haven't really done much to research into this issue since leaving the discussion as I have been quite busy. Referencing Mormon's Codex, Sorenson seems to be quite thorough to me, and I haven't been able to find a single case where he misrepresents a source.

I think you may be taking things out of context, both in the Book of Mormon and with the various academic fields of study.

With regards to metallurgy specifically, he clearly establishes that the body of research is conflicted, pointing out scholars who express frustration over a seeming lack of archaeological evidence which is at odds with the known anthropological record, who describe it as "infuriatingly enigmatic" and "the anthropologists sorest dilemma." For example the fact that five different ancient Mesoamerican languages, which date back 2000+ BC, include words for "metal" and that records besides the Book of Mormon, which are known to be authentically ancient, report advanced metallurgy, such as with the Toltecs, despite supposedly no archaeological evidence having been found for these people's. In case that isn't clear, many anthropologists have been surprised by the lack of metal and expect that it either simply hasn't been found yet or was recycled after AD 900.

He then goes on to point out other problems with existing research. Most Mesoamerican scholars assume metals were not used at all in the area before AD 900, because of a supposed dearth of evidence, but no explanation is offered for numerous metal specimens which HAVE been found which date before this time, even over a 150 specimens that "definitely or probably" date as much as 1500 years earlier, but which have been ignored as "too early to be genuine." Individually it has been easy for all this evidence to be overlooked as it is so dispersed. It is easier, and arguably more appropriate, for a researcher to set a single (unexplained) artifact aside rather than engage in what feels like speculation. Consequently such evidence has been overlooked, but this becomes very problematic when all these specimens are considered together rather than individually. In terms of statistics a single, or even a few, anomalies could be accepted, but not hundreds.

With regards to the Book of Mormon, metal is obscure. It is there, but it is not described as playing a major role. As Sorenson explains metal only appears in the first two centuries of Nephite history and its use was not utilitarian. He writes, "The Book of Mormon indicates that metals were mostly for luxury and for decorative and sacred uses. The archaeological history shows the same for Mesoamerica." What evidence is it that you expect? In my mind you seem to expect archaeological evidence that the Book of Mormon doesn't call for. And this is interesting because if it were a fraud, would we not expect metallurgy in the Book of Mormon to be clearly at odds with the archaeological and anthropological record? Instead it is cohesive.

And such is the case with issues like horses as well, which is a non sequitur. It is perfectly reasonable that the word "horse" did not refer to the same animal which we know to be a horse, equus, and there is a lot of anthropological and linguistic evidence to support this. Like the Aztec's referring to Spanish horses as "deer" or the word for deer in ancient languages appearing as the root for verbs which meant "to ride," or ancient art depicting men riding on unknown animals which appear to be horse-like or deer. It's very interesting to me that the Book of Mormon doesn't depict the Nephites riding around on horses shooting their bow and arrows, or using them for a lot of work, mention of horses is quite ambiguous. You regard the use of the word "horse" as evidence of fraud but cannot explain how the use of these animals (in the Book of Mormon) is completely different from that in the 19th century.

And this issue becomes even more muddied by the fact that genuine horse, equus, remains have been found which do date to the time period. Sorenson does not misrepresent this evidence either, he is very forthright with the issues. In one such case, which may be the one you're referring to, in Yucatan, two teeth were excavated from a water well site 2m below overlaying cultural debris, pottery and such. Sorenson writes, "The mammalogist responsible for conducting the dig and studying the material provided no explanation for the presence of the teeth except to suggest feebly that ancient people perhaps collected fossil horse teeth from somewhere (why?) and deposited them in the well." These teeth were not dated, and in fact they no longer exist today from what I understand. If they were fossil, where did they come from? The point here is that the researcher dismissed the evidence out of hand without giving it proper consideration. There are in fact horse remains which have been found and dated to times which fit with the Book of Mormon, and they have puzzled many researchers. It is believed that pre-Columbian horses did exist, but this picture is still very blurry.

I deal with these issues specifically on my website, which I already invited MG to peruse in response to Gardner's claim that the Nephite civilization would have been too small to leave on impact on Mesoamerican history. I invite you to read my metallurgy page and horse page for rebuttals to these Sorenson claims as well as specific examples of how he misrepresents sources.

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/horses.html

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/metallurgy.html

[_beastie]

MG,

I invite you to read these two sections of my website and then explain to us how it is possible that the Book of Mormon describes a civilization so minor that it could not reasonably be expected to have an impact on Mesoamerican history.

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/holy-lord.html

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/politi ... power.html

[_Bazooka]

MG,

I invite you to read these two sections of my website and then explain to us how it is possible that the Book of Mormon describes a civilization so minor that it could not reasonably be expected to have an impact on Mesoamerican history.

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/holy-lord.html

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/politi ... power.html

Then there's the inconvenient statement from God making it clear the America's had been kept hidden from all other nations - meaning the Nephites and Lamanites were the first and only inhabitants of the America's. (This is actually an example of an internal inconsistency as it appears that when God said that He had seemingly forgotten about the Jaredites).

[_Kishkumen]

We may have crossed lines. The argument you just made isn't tacit, or shallow, but the other one re the angel and missing plates being damning evidence against the Book of Mormon, which is the one I referred to, was.

I am afraid we did cross lines. What I was saying was that this claim about the angel taking the plates would be treated as evidence against the antiquity of the Book of Mormon by most non-LDS historians. So, I am not saying it is evidence against the Book of Mormon being scripture, or evidence the faithful should see as absolutely disproving the book. Rather, for the non-LDS historian it is clear evidence that the book is not ancient.

[_EAllusion]

MG,

I invite you to read these two sections of my website and then explain to us how it is possible that the Book of Mormon describes a civilization so minor that it could not reasonably be expected to have an impact on Mesoamerican history.

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/holy-lord.html

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/politi ... power.html

Hey, your web design is much improved Beastie.

I'd bet anything Water Dog is an unbeliever trolling, by the way. There's so many tells in his posts. He is bright, though. The description of spiritual experiences was on the nose.

[_DarkHelmet]

Waterdog, what was your spiritual witness, or witnesses? If you posted it already, let me know, and I can go back and look. I just don't want to wade through 75 pages of posts if it's not there.

I am reticent to give the full details as I expect clever responses. I have had numerous experiences which I would describe as being very similar to those described in Enos in the Book of Mormon. I have had thoughts appear in my mind which were like hearing a voice. It wasn't through my auditory system though, more like how they show information being downloaded into someone's brain in the Matrix. I don't know how else to describe it, suddenly knowledge just appeared, thoughts I had never had, facts I had never (to my recollection) acquired anywhere else. That in itself could be rationalized away, and I recognize this, but in many instances I later had the truth of this knowledge verified elsewhere.

For example in one instance I received a very clear message that I needed to go somewhere, literally to a specific address which I had never been to before. To an unknown address in an unknown part of town for a completely unknown reason. And I didn't even know the address, but in my mind I saw a picture of the location, of the specific apartment. Just as if you remember a place which you've been to before, you can picture it in your mind. I saw such an image but didn't know exactly where it was, what the address was, but I knew approximately where in town it would be from the environment, and this was in a city with over a million people, which is important because the statistical chances of everything that followed happening by pure chance is simply impossible. I felt that there was someone distressed at this location that needed help. I had no idea what that meant at all. So I went to this approximate location and searched around until I found the building I had pictured in my mind. There it was, just as I had seen it in my head, and I had never been there before. I went, knocked, and found someone very distressed. A man, who happened to be an inactive church member who hadn't been to church in decades and was baptized in some other city, wasn't in our records, and he was dying from a terminal illness. Earlier that day he knelt down and prayed for the first time in years for help to be sent. A few hours later I arrived. These were his words. I gave him a blessing. This was many years ago now. I've long since left the area but from what I understand this man is healthy and doing well and has been back in the church ever since. I think his wife may have also joined, but I'm not entirely sure about that. The story of her is pretty interesting too.

In one case I had a very vivid series of dreams. This was before going on a mission and while I was wrestling with my status in the church. This is what I would consider my conversion witness, the big booming answer I got in response to Moroni's promise. I went through a very exhaustive conversion process, perhaps a re-conversion process, where I went around visiting lots of churches, studying various religions, and arguing with people like you online. And I can genuinely say that I didn't want to stay with the church, I had other interests. Long story short I went through a very long process of prayer which spanned months, around a year, where I would pray pretty regularly, almost daily, for some kind of witness and got nothing back. At some point I realized that I didn't actually want an answer. It was a very subtle thing that took time for me to realize within myself. I was not consciously making this decision, but was nonetheless at a subconscious level. I concluded this wasn't a good attitude and changed my attitude dramatically into one where I seriously wanted to know and was willing to bear the responsibility of attaining that knowledge. The nature of my prayers changed. Immediately following this I had a series of dreams which were extremely vivid, like none I had ever had before, similar to the feelings I would later have with knowledge appearing in my brain as previously described. They just didn't feel like normal dreams. Content-wise, they were like watching my future. And honestly after this happened I still wasn't totally sure this was a witness. It was really different and immediately recognized it as a possible answer, but I still sought to rationalize it. It could have just been a dream, I had no "proof." Almost immediately after this I received my patriarchal blessing, within a few days. It was pure coincidence and had happened to be scheduled at this time. I got my patriarchal blessing later than is typical. The blessing was essentially a word for word match with what I witnessed in my dreams. He was describing the exact same story with words. I had not told anybody about my dreams. Nobody, literally nobody, was aware of my spiritual endeavor studying the scriptures and praying, the dreams, or any of it. Nobody came to my blessing with me. But later that day when I returned home my mother remarked that I looked as though I had seen a ghost. Little did she know, that is quite in fact what happened. And it was many years, not even until after my mission, before I told any of my family about this experience. And I know how some will respond, they will say I found my dream in the blessing. And I get how it's easy to draw that conclusion from the outside, but this really isn't the case. Had you experienced it, you would not feel that way. And I'm not going to post the text of my blessing online or get into those details. What I will say though is that in general it is very different from other blessings I have seen. I saw a lot of other blessings during my mission, many Elders would kind of compare. Although I never did let anybody read mine, but many were pretty open to let me see theirs. I've also seen many blessings from various members of my family who are also in the church, and it's very different. Most of the blessings I've seen are pretty vague and similar. Mine is quite specific, very detailed, and it says some pretty bold things as well, the sort that are unlikely to come true and consequently could damage someone's testimony. And it's long, several pages.

I've had other experiences as well. I think these were the two most impressive though in the sense that I have literally zero rational explanation for them outside of divine inspiration. Some others I can attribute to possibly being mere coincidence, although I do not regard them in that way because of these experiences. The feeling I describe of knowledge suddenly just appearing in my mind has happened numerous times. I don't know how else to describe it, it's just a very different feeling. It doesn't feel like an idea or some random feeling in the traditional sense. By comparison the other thoughts or sensations I experience feel clouded in a sense. At any rate, I can't prove any of it, and don't expect anybody to take my word for it. Although I could present the distressed brother from the first experience I spoke of. He didn't experience things from my perspective, but he can confirm that I was a total stranger to him and just randomly showed up to his door as I described. It happened.

Perhaps I'm lying and just trolling this forum. Or maybe I'm crazy, although I've never had such a diagnosis. :)

So if someone has a reasonable explanation for these two experiences, I'm all ears.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Waterdog. Many people would have said it was too sacred, or they won't cast pearls before swine, so I appreciate you taking the time to type all that out. I don't have any good explanations for those things, and I won't mock you or accuse you of lying. I have many family members who I love who claim the same spiritual experiences. It does help us understand why you continue to believe something that appears like such an obvious fraud to others when they look into the facts. As Carl Sagan would say, your experiences don't prove or disprove Mormonism, they just prove that something very interesting is going on inside your brain. I don't mean that to insult you. I'm open minded enough to believe that there is probably more out there than most people can comprehend, and perhaps some people have a "sixth sense". This sixth sense of yours doesn't necessarily mean Mormonism is true. It could mean you can control events in your life, and since you are a Mormon, you are controlling events to support your religious beliefs. Other people from other religions claim similar spiritual experiences that support their religious beliefs, which would be in conflict with Mormonism. All of these various spiritual experiences from people of different faiths suggests to me that none of these man made religions are true, but there very well could be something big out there that humans can't yet comprehend. I haven't totally closed my mind to spirituality. It's just that man made religions like Mormonism are too simplistic for me. If there is something out there, it's beyond human comprehension.

[_Themis]

We may have crossed lines. The argument you just made isn't tacit, or shallow, but the other one re the angel and missing plates being damning evidence against the Book of Mormon, which is the one I referred to, was.

I am afraid we did cross lines. What I was saying was that this claim about the angel taking the plates would be treated as evidence against the antiquity of the Book of Mormon by most non-LDS historians. So, I am not saying it is evidence against the Book of Mormon being scripture, or evidence the faithful should see as absolutely disproving the book. Rather, for the non-LDS historian it is clear evidence that the book is not ancient.

I grew up thinking this story as normal and maybe even a little faith promoting. After realizing the Book of Mormon may not be true my perspective on stories like this changed seeing this is what Joseph would need to do if the most he ever had was a prop.

[_Themis]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Waterdog. Many people would have said it was too sacred, or they won't cast pearls before swine, so I appreciate you taking the time to type all that out. I don't have any good explanations for those things, and I won't mock you or accuse you of lying. I have many family members who I love who claim the same spiritual experiences. It does help us understand why you continue to believe something that appears like such an obvious fraud to others when they look into the facts. As Carl Sagan would say, your experiences don't prove or disprove Mormonism, they just prove that something very interesting is going on inside your brain. I don't mean that to insult you. I'm open minded enough to believe that there is probably more out there than most people can comprehend, and perhaps some people have a "sixth sense". This sixth sense of yours doesn't necessarily mean Mormonism is true. It could mean you can control events in your life, and since you are a Mormon, you are controlling events to support your religious beliefs. Other people from other religions claim similar spiritual experiences that support their religious beliefs, which would be in conflict with Mormonism. All of these various spiritual experiences from people of different faiths suggests to me that none of these man made religions are true, but there very well could be something big out there that humans can't yet comprehend. I haven't totally closed my mind to spirituality. It's just that man made religions like Mormonism are too simplistic for me. If there is something out there, it's beyond human comprehension.

It's even more complex then this. The moment after we have an experience our minds start the editing process. This process can continue when ever we go back over the event in our minds.