Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the water

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_Spanner
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Spanner »

Brad Hudson wrote:I don't think it matters that it was a prepared talk. The source of the story is Monson, is it not?


The point is that the story was researched to get the correct ship and location details for the 2007 presentation. So Monson must have known he was not giving the whole truth about the manner of death.

ETA: those were the parts of the story that he embellished as well, so the embellishment looks deliberately manipulative on top of choosing to use inaccurate information.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Spanner wrote:
Brad Hudson wrote:I don't think it matters that it was a prepared talk. The source of the story is Monson, is it not?


The point is that the story was researched to get the correct ship and location details for the 2007 presentation. So Monson must have known he was not giving the whole truth about the manner of death.

ETA: those were the parts of the story that he embellished as well, so the embellishment looks deliberately manipulative on top of choosing to use inaccurate information.


What did this research consist of? Who did it? Exactly what did they look at? Exactly what were they told and by whom? In my opinion, "must have known" is a conclusion that requires a pretty heavy burden of proof. In Benson's piece, I see a bunch of speculation based on precious little hard evidence.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Spanner »

What did this research consist of? Who did it? Exactly what did they look at? Exactly what were they told and by whom? In my opinion, "must have known" is a conclusion that requires a pretty heavy burden of proof. In Benson's piece, I see a bunch of speculation based on precious little hard evidence.


The story was changed extensively for 2007. The date, location and name of the ship were changed to the correct details. Unless Monson ismore of a prophet than we give him credit for, this must have been the result of research. The information was not all from the mother's letter, she only supplied the date.
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Spanner wrote:
What did this research consist of? Who did it? Exactly what did they look at? Exactly what were they told and by whom? In my opinion, "must have known" is a conclusion that requires a pretty heavy burden of proof. In Benson's piece, I see a bunch of speculation based on precious little hard evidence.


The story was changed extensively for 2007. The date, location and name of the ship were changed to the correct details. Unless Monson ismore of a prophet than we give him credit for, this must have been the result of research. The information was not all from the mother's letter, she only supplied the date.


In other words, we have two talks, given 38 years apart. The story in 1969 was about how Monson comforted the mother of a guy he knew who was killed in WWII. The story in 2007 was about how he got a letter 38 years earlier from the woman who had coincidentally been invited to a friend's home to listen to conference. in 2007, some incidental details not relevant to the story line were changed.

When you say "research," you really don't know what you mean. You don't know whether Monson read the whole letter in his talk. You don't know whether the letter prompted Monson to call the woman back in 1969 and so learned other details he had recalled incorrectly. You don't know who did this "research," the extent of the "research," the source consulted for the "research," or when the "research" was done. And from this vacuum of actual information, Benson concludes that Monson learned other information culled from war records that Monson intentionally and deceptively omitted from the 2007 talk. That's what I mean by a bunch of speculation based on precious little hard evidence.

in my opinion, to establish lying, you have to do better than that. You're free to disagree.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Bazooka
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Bazooka »

Brad Hudson wrote:The source of the story is Monson, is it not?


I think that is the question Mr Benson is speculating on.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Bazooka
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Bazooka »

Brad Hudson wrote:What did this research consist of? Who did it? Exactly what did they look at? Exactly what were they told and by whom? In my opinion, "must have known" is a conclusion that requires a pretty heavy burden of proof. In Benson's piece, I see a bunch of speculation based on precious little hard evidence.


The hard evidence is that, whatever research and preparation was done for the first retelling of the story, in 1969, it was wrong.
The facts that were given in the talk about Ship name, location, what happened etc must have been researched in some way.
It is clear that, in between the telling of the original tale and it appearing 'in print' some information was received that showed what Monson had given as facts were...well...not facts. Had the footnote corrected those mistakes then yes, this is a non story. But why let the mistaken history stand as 'fact' for 38 years?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Kishkumen »

I have never looked at heartwarming anecdotes as delivered by octogenarian religious leaders as a source of reliable history.

I don't expect it.

And, I don't really care.

People tell stories to make others feel good.

Big deal.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Bazooka »

Kishkumen wrote:I have never looked at heartwarming anecdotes as delivered by octogenarian religious leaders as a source of reliable history.

I don't expect it.

And, I don't really care.

People tell stories to make others feel good.

Big deal.


Paul H Dunn?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I think the fact that Mr. Benson had to edit his story something like 12 times is indicative of the fact that story-telling isn't a hard science and is prone to errors.

You can extrapolate that a prophet of God ought to have infallible knowledge of the space-time continuum, but I think that's reaching a bit.

Bottom line is Mr. Benson loves to rustle some jimmies, but quite often he's more miss than hit.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Benson blows Monson's Arthur Patton tale out of the wate

Post by _Bazooka »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I think the fact that Mr. Benson had to edit his story something like 12 times is indicative of the fact that story-telling isn't a hard science and is prone to errors.

You can extrapolate that a prophet of God ought to have infallible knowledge of the space-time continuum, but I think that's reaching a bit.

Bottom line is Mr. Benson loves to rustle some jimmies, but quite often he's more miss than hit.

- Doc


So you're okay with the perceived errors in the Book of Mormon and Church History?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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