Bible verse by verse

[_subgenius]

...(snip away a lot of posturing and dodging)...

So...exactly how do you discern from the whole of scriptures that:
1. God is beholden to you, or any person, in providing cause for His actions?
2. God's "care" is manifest by the preservation/destruction of life and/or property?

Thanks for showing that you haven't kept up with the conversation on this thread.
You really don't know who said what and why.
Please go back and reread the relevant parts of the thread.

but you did not participate with any of the relevant parts.

However, do you think God is not beholden to humanity to give explanation about what He has or hasn't done and why?

I do think God is not beholden to humanity to give explanation. This is evident in the teachings and experiences on receives about the nature and character of the Spirit. Also, to simplify this meat to milk, a parent is not beholden to its child to explain their actions.....and while you may counter this notion "just for argument's sake", rest assured that is the only sake it would serve.

I think you will find that Mormonism teaches that He is - it's called making covenants (two way agreements).

None of the covenants taught by the LDS regard God being "beholden to explain" His actions or decisions. You are misleading.

He (supposedly) sent us down to earth to learn. How do you learn without asking questions and forming judgements on what you perceive are the answers?

You are correct here, but the "judgments" you form determine your grade....i fear you may be in summer school if you are to graduate at all.

The primary purpose for being on earth (supposedly) is to 'judge' for ones self.

Absolutely....but this does not mean that God is beholden to you, or anyone, in providing a cause for His actions. This is not saying that the cause is not available to you, just that He is not beholden to you for it.

[_LittleNipper]

Well, your question doesn't relate to the thread. You explain how a sinful world could possibly be perfect.

Back in the kindergarten debating club I see....

Why do I need to explain how a sinful world could possibly be perfect when I haven't made such a claim?

Are you conceding that you cannot explain how God taking those poor unfortunate Filipino people to be judged constitutes helping them?

You haven't been reading the Bible, chapter, verse --- that I have been placing on this thread. As a people move away from God, they are left open to the ravages of this sinful world. I believe that is why American Public schools are in such turmoil, why our economy is so sour, and people do not know from one day to another what will happen next. When people say that they are great and that their greatness is what sustains them, they are standing on the edge of a cliff. Satan loves it and says, "Now I have them!" Look what happened to Israel... The Lord promised them a comfortable life if only they focus on the Lord. They focused on their own pleasures. I cannot say one country is worse than another; however, I can see that as nations stray from humility and God, they are leaving themselves open to Satan's control and wrath. So, if you do not see how ancient kingdoms were punished for their evil ways, and Israel was punished for her transgressions, how can I hope to convince you of the transgressions of other more modern nations. The ideology that money and things will deliver happiness, the social belief that governmental controlled education is our only hope, religious open expressions of faith expelled from education, the ending of unwanted pregnancies, no fault divorce, encouraged premarital sex, preoccupation with sexual fantasies, the distortion of marriage ---- these are our sins. And it seems that with all the warnings I see God sending ------------------------- the vast majority just don't seem to be getting it. One does reap exactly what one sows. Only when a nation falls to its knees and asks for forgiveness and God's help, will it come. AS LONG AS PEOPLE CONTINUE TO PLACE THEIR FAITH IN THEIR OWN CONTRIVED VALUES, AND OPINIONS, AND POLICIES, AND LEADERSHIP, THEY WILL STINK AND SINK FURTHER INTO THEIR OWN EXCRETEMENT.

[_Bazooka]

Thanks Nipper, I can now totally see how God helped those Filippinos who were killed...

[_Bazooka]

Subby, God was once a man like us, so He is certainly beholden to someone...

[_huckelberry]

That depends on one's definitions of "perfect" and "sinful" doesn't it? Can you give us universally accepted or uncontroversial definitions of those terms?

And here is a question you have apparently not even tried to address, though I have asked it of you more than once: How could God be truly omnipotent or competent if the entire, incredibly vast Universe he supposedly created could have become so easily corrupted by the single act of one human being on this world, which is such an infinitesimally tiny portion of all that exists?

A related question is this: What is so incredibly sinful about seeking knowledge? That was, after all, the motivation for Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit in the first place, wasn't it?

Not seeing any follow to this post I will step in just to present a bit of a different angle.

I do not see that just because God is omnipotent that it should be assumed that creation is easy and with out serious difficulties and impediments. Perhaps that can be seen clearer when considering that Adam and Eve are hardly the start of evil in creation. The scripture is clear that they were confronted by a representative of evil present long before them in creation. There is no basis to think that creation was ever perfect. To reach perfection a long way to go and many possible distasters must be undertaken. Creating spirits who were not rote programing but capable of free choice created the possibilty of evil. That evil was already established before Adam was enticed to joinethat path..

But of course Adam wanted Knowledge. I see zero scriptural reason to think seeking knowledge is itself a bad thing. It is good, however that goodness does not excuse a bod act performed in its name. "It is all right officer I was studying theft to round out my education". officer:"sure son, its ok as long as you learned something from it, and it was not my car you stole"

[_LittleNipper]

Judges 1:1-35 After Joshua died, the nation of Israel went to the Lord to receive his instruction. They wondered which tribe should be the first to go to war against the Canaanites. God’s answer came that it was to be Judah. And God would give them the victory. The leaders of the tribe of Judah, however, asked help from the tribe of Simeon in clearing out the people living Judah's territory. Judah in turn would assist the army of Simeon. The Lord helped them defeat the Canaanites and Perizzites : 10,000 of the enemy were slain at Bezek. King Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israeli army soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes.

“I have treated 70 kings in like manner and have fed them the scraps under my table!” King Adoni-bezek said. “Now God has paid me back.” He was taken to Jerusalem and died there.

Judah had conquered Jerusalem and massacred its people, setting the city ablaze. Afterward the army of Judah fought the Canaanites in the hill country and in the Negeb, as well as on the coastal plains. Then marched against the Canaanites in Hebron (formerly called Kiriath-arba), destroying the cities of Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai. Later they attacked the city of Debir (formerly called Kiriath-sepher).

“Who will lead the attack against Debir?” Caleb challenged them. “Whoever conquers it shall have my daughter Achsah as his wife!” Caleb’s nephew, Othniel, son of his younger brother Kenaz, volunteered to lead the attack; and he conquered the city and won Achsah as his bride. As they were leaving for their new home, she urged him to ask her father for an additional portion of land. She dismounted from her donkey to speak to Caleb about it. She thanked Caleb for the land in the Negeb, but asked for the spring, also. So Caleb gave her the upper and lower springs.

When the tribe of Judah moved into its new land in the Negeb Desert south of Arad, the descendants of Moses’ father-in-law—members of the Kenite tribe—accompanied them. They left their homes in Jericho, “The City of Palm Trees,” and the two tribes lived together after that. Afterwards the army of Judah joined Simeon’s, and they fought the Canaanites at the city of Zephath and massacred all its people. So the city was renamed named Hormah (meaning, “massacred”). The army of Judah also conquered the cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ekron, with their surrounding villages. The Lord helped the tribe of Judah eliminate the people of the hill country, though they failed in their attempt to conquer the people of the valley, who had iron chariots. The city of Hebron was given to Caleb as the Lord had promised; so Caleb drove out the inhabitants of the city; they were descendants of the three sons of Anak.

The tribe of Benjamin failed to eliminate the Jebusites living in their part of the city of Jerusalem, so they still live there to the time of this report, mingled with the Israelis.

As for the tribe of Joseph, they attacked the city of Bethel, formerly known as Luz, and the Lord was with them. First they sent scouts, who captured a man coming out of the city. They offered to spare his life and that of his family if he would show them the entrance passage through the wall. So he showed them how to get in, and they massacred the entire population except for this man and his family. Later the man moved to Syria and founded a city there, naming it Luz.

The tribe of Manasseh failed to drive out the people living in Beth-shean, Taanach, Dor, Ibleam, Megiddo, with their surrounding towns; so the Canaanites stayed there. In later years when the Israelis were stronger, they put the Canaanites to work as slaves, but never did force them to leave the country. This was also true of the Canaanites living in Gezer; they live among the tribe of Ephraim.

The tribe of Zebulun did not massacre the people of Kitron or Nahalol, but made them their slaves; nor did the tribe of Asher drive out the residents of Acco, Sidon, Ahlab, Achzib, Helbah, Aphik, or Rehob; so the Israelis still lived among the Canaanites, who were the original people of that land. The tribe of Naphtali did not drive out the people of Beth-shemesh or of Beth-anath, so these people continued to live among them as servants.

As for the tribe of Dan, the Amorites forced them into the hill country and wouldn’t let them come down into the valley; but when the Amorites later spread into Mount Heres, Aijalon, and Shaalbim, the tribe of Joseph conquered them and made them slaves. The boundary of the Amorites began at the ascent of Scorpion Pass, ran to a spot called The Rock, and continued upward from there.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And it cometh to pass, after the death of Joshua, that the sons of Israel ask at Jehovah, saying, `Who doth go up for us unto the Canaanite, at the commencement, to fight against it?'

2 And Jehovah saith, `Judah doth go up; lo, I have given the land into his hand.'

3 And Judah saith to Simeon his brother, `Go up with me into my lot, and we fight against the Canaanite -- and I have gone, even I, with thee into thy lot;' and Simeon goeth with him.

4 And Judah goeth up, and Jehovah giveth the Canaanite and the Perizzite into their hand, and they smite them in Bezek -- ten thousand men;

5 and they find Adoni-Bezek in Bezek, and fight against him, and smite the Canaanite and the Perizzite.

6 And Adoni-Bezek fleeth, and they pursue after him, and seize him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes,

7 and Adoni-Bezek saith, `Seventy kings -- their thumbs and their great toes cut off -- have been gathering under my table; as I have done so hath God repaid to me;' and they bring him in to Jerusalem, and he dieth there.

8 And the sons of Judah fight against Jerusalem, and capture it, and smite it by the mouth of the sword, and the city they have sent into fire;

9 and afterwards have the sons of Judah gone down to fight against the Canaanite, inhabiting the hill-country, and the south, and the low country;

10 and Judah goeth unto the Canaanite who is dwelling in Hebron (and the name of Hebron formerly [is] Kirjath-Arba), and they smite Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai.

11 And he goeth thence unto the inhabitants of Debir (and the name of Debir formerly [is] Kirjath-Sepher),

12 and Caleb saith, `He who smiteth Kirjath-Sepher -- and hath captured it -- then I have given to him Achsah my daughter for a wife.'

13 And Othniel son of Kenaz, younger brother of Caleb, doth capture it, and he giveth to him Achsah his daughter for a wife.

14 And it cometh to pass in her coming in, that she persuadeth him to ask from her father the field, and she lighteth from off the ass, and Caleb saith to her, `What -- to thee?'

15 And she saith to him, `Give to me a blessing; when the south land thou hast given me -- then thou hast given to me springs of water; and Caleb giveth to her the upper springs and the lower springs.

16 And the sons of the Kenite, father-in-law of Moses, have gone up out of the city of palms with the sons of Judah [to] the wilderness of Judah, which [is] in the south of Arad, and they go and dwell with the people.

17 And Judah goeth with Simeon his brother, and they smite the Canaanite inhabiting Zephath, and devote it; and [one] calleth the name of the city Hormah.

18 And Judah captureth Gaza and its border, and Askelon and its border, and Ekron and its border;

19 and Jehovah is with Judah, and he occupieth the hill-country, but not to dispossess the inhabitants of the valley, for they have chariots of iron.

20 And they give to Caleb Hebron, as Moses hath spoken, and he dispossesseth thence the three sons of Anak.

21 And the Jebusite, inhabiting Jerusalem, the sons of Benjamin have not dispossessed; and the Jebusite dwelleth with the sons of Benjamin, in Jerusalem, till this day.

22 And the house of Joseph go up -- even they -- to Beth-El, and Jehovah [is] with them;

23 and the house of Joseph cause [men] to spy about Beth-El (and the name of the city formerly is Luz),

24 and the watchers see a man coming out from the city, and say to him, `Shew us, we pray thee, the entrance of the city, and we have done with thee kindness.'

25 And he sheweth them the entrance of the city, and they smite the city by the mouth of the sword, and the man and all his family they have sent away;

26 and the man goeth to the land of the Hittites, and buildeth a city, and calleth its name Luz -- it [is] its name unto this day.

27 And Manasseh hath not occupied Beth-Shean and its towns, and Taanach and its towns, and the inhabitants of Dor and its towns, and the inhabitants of Iblaim and its towns, and the inhabitants of Megiddo and its towns, and the Canaanite is desirous to dwell in that land;

28 and it cometh to pass, when Israel hath been strong, that he setteth the Canaanite to tribute, and hath not utterly dispossessed it.

29 And Ephraim hath not dispossessed the Canaanite who is dwelling in Gezer, and the Canaanite dwelleth in its midst, in Gezer.

30 Zebulun hath not dispossessed the inhabitants of Kitron, and the inhabitants of Nahalol, and the Canaanite dwelleth in its midst, and they become tributary.

31 Asher hath not dispossessed the inhabitants of Accho, and the inhabitants of Zidon, and Ahlab, and Achzib, and Helbah, and Aphik, and Rehob;

32 and the Asherite dwelleth in the midst of the Canaanite, the inhabitants of the land, for it hath not dispossessed them.

33 Naphtali hath not dispossessed the inhabitants of Beth-Shemesh, and the inhabitants of Beth-Anath, and he dwelleth in the midst of the Canaanite, the inhabitants of the land; and the inhabitants of Beth-Shemesh and of Beth-Anath have become tributary to them.

34 And the Amorites press the sons of Dan to the mountain, for they have not suffered them to go down to the valley;

35 and the Amorite is desirous to dwell in mount Heres, in Aijalon, and in Shaalbim, and the hand of the house of Joseph is heavy, and they become tributary;

36 and the border of the Amorite [is] from the ascent of Akrabbim, from the rock and upward.

[_Gunnar]

That depends on one's definitions of "perfect" and "sinful" doesn't it? Can you give us universally accepted or uncontroversial definitions of those terms?

And here is a question you have apparently not even tried to address, though I have asked it of you more than once: How could God be truly omnipotent or competent if the entire, incredibly vast Universe he supposedly created could have become so easily corrupted by the single act of one human being on this world, which is such an infinitesimally tiny portion of all that exists?

A related question is this: What is so incredibly sinful about seeking knowledge? That was, after all, the motivation for Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit in the first place, wasn't it?

Not seeing any follow to this post I will step in just to present a bit of a different angle.

I do not see that just because God is omnipotent that it should be assumed that creation is easy and with out serious difficulties and impediments.

That's because, unlike LittleNipper (to whom my question was directed), you are not entirely unreasonable.

Perhaps that can be seen clearer when considering that Adam and Eve are hardly the start of evil in creation.

That is precisely what LittleNipper (apparently) cannot see or refuses to see, thus, again, why I directed my question at him.[/quote]

The scripture is clear that they were confronted by a representative of evil present long before them in creation.

By which you obviously mean Satan. But how did Satan come about? Did God create him as well? Why? Did he not know what the inevitable result would be?

There is no basis to think that creation was ever perfect.

Or ever will be! However, LittleNipper seems convinced that it was, at the beginning, and was corrupted by Adam's "sin." I am sure that you don't really believe that, which is why the question was not directed at you to begin with. What is perfection anyway? Do you have an uncontroversial, universally accept definition for that? What seems perfect to one often seems seriously flawed to another.

To reach perfection a long way to go and many possible distasters must be undertaken. Creating spirits who were not rote programing but capable of free choice created the possibilty of evil. That evil was already established before Adam was enticed to joinethat path.

So why does Adam get so much (or even all) of the blame, as LittleNipper seems to insist? And wasn't all of this part of God's plan from the beginning?

But of course Adam wanted Knowledge. I see zero scriptural reason to think seeking knowledge is itself a bad thing. It is good, however that goodness does not excuse a bod act performed in its name. "It is all right officer I was studying theft to round out my education". officer:"sure son, its ok as long as you learned something from it, and it was not my car you stole"

In Genesis it specifically states that Adam and Eve were forbidden to seek knowledge of good and evil. I can't but see this as unreasonable and unjust. How could they possibly avoid evil without any knowledge of how to distinguish it from good? There is not the slightest justification that I can see that Adam wanted that knowledge because he intended to commit evil.

[_huckelberry]

In Genesis it specifically states that Adam and Eve were forbidden to seek knowledge of good and evil. I can't but see this as unreasonable and unjust. How could they possibly avoid evil without any knowledge of how to distinguish it from good? There is not the slightest justification that I can see that Adam wanted that knowledge because he intended to commit evil.

Gunnar , I picked on your post just because I thought it presented some fun possibilities for exchange.I can certainily see your point about ambiguity in the word perfection. Lets leave it out.

Half of me thinks my example of the teenage car theft should close all discussion. The other half considers that there seems that sometimes people can sound as if faith was supposed to replace knowledge. If there is in religious circles some antiknowledge urges perhaps the Genesis story must be looked at more carefully.

My reply here will be short despite several possible angles to consider. (I live in pacific nw and the football game is on)

I do not think that knowing good and evil is possible untill you have contact with real evil . Before that what is there to know?

[_LittleNipper]

Judges 2:1-23 One day the Angel of the Lord arrived at Bochim [Very possibly the manifestation of Jesus before His incarnation] , coming from Gilgal, and announced to the people of Israel, “I brought you out of Egypt into this land that I promised to your ancestors, and I said that I would never break my covenant with you, if you, on your part, would make no peace treaties with the people living in this land; I told you to destroy their heathen altars. Why have you not obeyed? And now since you have broken the contract, it is no longer in effect, and I no longer promise to destroy the nations living in your land; rather, they shall be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a constant temptation to you.”

The people cried as the Angel finished speaking; so that place was called “Bochim” (meaning, “the place where people wept”). Then they offered sacrifices to the Lord. When Joshua finally disbanded the armies of Israel, the tribes moved into their new territories and took possession of the land. Joshua, the man of God, died at the age of 110 and was buried at the edge of his property in Timnath-heres, in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash. The people had remained true to the Lord throughout Joshua’s lifetime, and as long afterward as the old men of Joshua's generation were still living—those who had seen the mighty miracles the Lord had done for Israel.

Finally all that generation died; and the next generation did not worship Jehovah as their God and did not care about the mighty miracles he had done for Israel. They did many things that the Lord had expressly forbidden, including the worshiping of heathen gods. They abandoned Jehovah, the God loved and worshiped by their ancestors—the God who had brought them out of Egypt. Instead, they succumb to idol worship of the surrounding nations. So the anger of the Lord flamed out against all Israel. He left them to the mercy of their enemies, for they had departed from Jehovah and were worshiping Baal and the Ashtaroth idols. So now when the nation of Israel went out to battle against its enemies, the Lord blocked their path. He had warned them about this, and in fact had vowed that he would do it. But when the people were in this terrible plight, the Lord raised up judges to save them from their enemies.

Israel would not listen to the judges, but broke faith with Jehovah by worshiping other gods instead. How quickly they turned away from the true faith of their ancestors, for they refused to obey God’s commands. Each judge rescued the people of Israel from their enemies throughout his lifetime, for the Lord was moved to pity by the groaning of his people under their crushing oppressions; so he helped them as long as that judge lived. But when the judge died, the people turned from doing right and behaved even worse than their ancestors had. They prayed to heathen gods again, throwing themselves to the ground in humble worship. They stubbornly returned to the evil customs of other nations. So the Lord left those nations in the land and did not drive them out, nor let Israel destroy them.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And a messenger of Jehovah goeth up from Gilgal unto Bochim,

2 and saith, `I cause you to come up out of Egypt, and bring you in unto the land which I have sworn to your fathers, and say, I do not break My covenant with you to the age; and ye -- ye make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land -- their altars ye break down; and ye have not hearkened to My voice -- what [is] this ye have done?

3 And I also have said, I do not cast them out from your presence, and they have been to you for adversaries, and their gods are to you for a snare.'

4 And it cometh to pass, when the messenger of Jehovah speaketh these words unto all the sons of Israel, that the people lift up their voice and weep,

5 and they call the name of that place Bochim, and sacrifice there to Jehovah.

6 And Joshua sendeth the people away, and the sons of Israel go, each to his inheritance, to possess the land;

7 and the people serve Jehovah all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who prolonged days after Joshua, who saw all the great work of Jehovah which He did to Israel.

8 And Joshua son of Nun, servant of Jehovah, dieth, a son of a hundred and ten years,

9 and they bury him in the border of his inheritance, in Timnath-Heres, in the hill-country of Ephraim, on the north of mount Gaash;

10 and also all that generation have been gathered unto their fathers, and another generation riseth after them who have not known Jehovah, and even the work which He hath done to Israel.

11 And the sons of Israel do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, and serve the Baalim,

12 and forsake Jehovah, God of their fathers, who bringeth them out from the land of Egypt, and go after other gods (of the gods of the peoples who [are] round about them), and bow themselves to them, and provoke Jehovah,

13 yea, they forsake Jehovah, and do service to Baal and to Ashtaroth.

14 And the anger of Jehovah burneth against Israel, and He giveth them into the hand of spoilers, and they spoil them, and He selleth them into the hand of their enemies round about, and they have not been able any more to stand before their enemies;

15 in every [place] where they have gone out, the hand of Jehovah hath been against them for evil, as Jehovah hath spoken, and as Jehovah hath sworn to them, and they are distressed -- greatly.

16 And Jehovah raiseth up judges, and they save them from the hand of their spoilers;

17 and also unto their judges they have not hearkened, but have gone a-whoring after other gods, and bow themselves to them; they have turned aside [with] haste out of the way [in] which their fathers walked to obey the commands of Jehovah -- they have not done so.

18 And when Jehovah raised up to them judges -- then was Jehovah with the judge, and saved them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for it repenteth Jehovah, because of their groaning from the presence of their oppressors, and of those thrusting them away.

19 And it hath come to pass, at the death of the judge -- they turn back and have done corruptly above their fathers, to go after other gods, to serve them, and to bow themselves to them; they have not fallen from their doings, and from their stiff way.

20 And the anger of Jehovah doth burn against Israel, and He saith, `Because that this nation have transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened to My voice --

21 I also continue not to dispossess any from before them of the nations which Joshua hath left when he dieth,

22 in order to try Israel by them, whether they are keeping the way of Jehovah, to go in it, as their fathers kept [it] or not.'

23 And Jehovah leaveth these nations, so as not to dispossess them hastily, and did not give them into the hand of Joshua.

[_subgenius]

Subby, God was once a man like us, so He is certainly beholden to someone...

how do you figure?
I mean if you are trying to imply that exaltation to "God" still has one beholden then please, explain...with scriptural support if possible...but i assume you are going to rely on your usual methods, which reside in "thin air".