Quasimodo wrote:It sounds like a "Man Overboard" if he was missing days after leaving port. If he was on night watch when he fell over, no one would notice until the next roll call. They probably wouldn't even bother to turn the ship around in a war setting.
It seems kind of odd that no other explanation was given. Although, those were wild and crazy times.
Do you know if his ship was in combat just prior to his being missed?
I think the important point here is that President Monson said a number of things about Patton that were not true.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Shiloh wrote:Without an obsessive-compulsive analysis of Monson's widow-stories, Mormonism would flourish. There really are no other problems to consider.
If only Mormons knew that their prophet was telling whoppers about visiting old ladies for religious reasons, the whole Mormonism thing would just fly apart immediately.
The truth must be told.
Who's the lucky lady receiving that kiss?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Darth J wrote:Does anyone happen to know if Steve Benson has acknowledged that in 2011, members of this message board researched and debunked Thomas S. Monson's Arthur Patton story?
Or would that somewhat lessen the impact of this Stunning Revelation By Steve Benson That All You Mormons Are In Denial Over?
No, I'm sure Steve Benson is not the mirror image of Daniel Peterson, including the accompanying cult of personality. So of course Steve Benson has credited Mormon Discussions member Just Me with the research she already did into this.
OI have mentioned "Just Me"
Within the last week, I was informed by another source of a particular post by "Just Me" from 2011's "Mormon Discussions" that I was not aware of. I considered it to be quite significant and well reasoned; noted its posting date and citations; and will be quoting from it with open and deserved attribution when I compile my final conclusions in posting form (a project that I have been working on for some time now). To be sure, I would not use "Just Me's" research without giving credit where credit is due. There are other sources that I will be quoting and citing, as well. I think it has been demonstrated here that I regard proper attribution as important and necessary. This is, after all, a team effort. "Just Me's" turn for deserved recognition is coming and I ain't t blowin' smoke on that.
Funny, Steve, Just Me's research was pointed out to you on RFM back in 2011 in one of your early threads on the topic:
Re: *FYI: Interesting, pertinent and intriguing information will be forthcoming (don't know exactly when, but hopefully soon) on Arthur Patton, phantom boyhood friend of Tom Thumb Monson ...
You don't have to wait. This has already been investigated by another.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2011 12:13PM by thunder stealer.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
"Ahem. I have answered that question earlier in this posting series. I would urge you to go back read through it. I said I was in the process of trying to get hold of Patton's entire military service record, then noted the records that I have seen--including his enlistment card and his on-ship crew records for the U.S.S. White Plains (the latter which deal with his on-board presence or lack thereof, transfers and status. It was aboard the U.S.S. White Plains where Monson claimed Patton perished in combat, which he did not. It was on the U.S.S. White Plains where Patton was declared missing and, after which. the U.S. military has not indicated in official casualty lists Patton's ultimate fate).[/quote]
from Brad Hudson:
"I have been following this thread, but I haven't posted anything until now.
"It seems the fate of Patton is a little fuzzy. You may not be able to discern this from the navy records, but was Patton listed as absent without leave (AWOL, staying in port when the ship sailed) or did they think he just fell off the ship (those things did and do happen)?
"It's not clear from the ship's records, which just list him and another sailor as missing due to own misconduct. There is a blank for AWOL or Desertion, but the label on the form is crossed out and the notation is hand-written in. Nothing in the ship's records ever list him or the other sailor as dead. So, yeah, fuzzy." _____
My current reply:
Patton's ship, the U.S.S. White Plains, did not, in July 1944 (or at any other tine) list him as dead. Rather, it listed him as "Missing due to own misconduct." Patton's ultimate fate was not detailed in the same ship's logs but we do know that Patton was onboard the U.S.S. Patton on 2 July 1944, as noted in the crew records for that date. Patton was later designated as "missing" in the ship's record--during the time that the U.S.S. White Plains was out of the zone of combat operations. This means that, contrary to Monson's claim, Patton was not killed in a combat operations zone as a result of engaging in battle with the enemy, because no combat was going on at the time involving the U.S.S. White Plains, as it had by then moved out of zone combat operations. It was during the ship's transit through non-combat waters that Patton became missing.
The crew records of the U.S.S. White Plains do not designate Patton as having been AWOL or as having deserted. (I have noted that fact previously). What is "fuzzy" is exactly how Patton died (with the note again made that we do know how Patton did NOT die--he was not KIA). Patton never boarded ship again (i.e., after having been designated missing ,as of 4 July 1944). Patton's name does not show up in comprehensive U.S. military casualty records covering the entire course of World War II under the categories of KIA, wounded, died from wounds, or missing.
I have already noted that it is possible that Patton could have died from non-combat-related personal actions, including accidents. Those are scenarios, however, that have not been cited in U.S. military records as having been (or not been} Patton's cause of death.
And it seems that you did read the thread here that just me posted her analysis in.
By the way, a nasty temper tantrum has now erupted on the board you mentioned, with Monson defenders vowing to leave and never come back . . .
The tired old line (often invoked when Mormon "prophets" have been caught in their deceits) is that the obvious discrepancies in Monson's Patton tales are "inconsequential."
Right.
Some of these wackos are siding with Danny Peterson in their own temple pledge to stomp off in a saintly snit (probably to return, however, under other names). Heh.
And the greatest compliment of all (though they probably don't realize it) is that the Patton discussion there which is causing Monson defenders to run off in a history-hating huff is "worse than RfM."
In the face of facts, the faithful flee.
And so it goes.
:)
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2011 06:35PM by steve benson.
ETA: The "board" was referred to "MDB" in the RfM thread. It's possible Steve read a thread on MDDB as opposed to the thread on this board. It may be wishful thinking on my part to have this board be described as "worse than RfM."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Steve Benson wrote: Ahem. I have answered that question earlier in this posting series. I would urge you to go back read through it. I said I was in the process of trying to get hold of Patton's entire military service record, then noted the records that I have seen--including his enlistment card and his on-ship crew records for the U.S.S. White Plains (the latter which deal with his on-board presence or lack thereof, transfers and status. It was aboard the U.S.S. White Plains where Monson claimed Patton perished in combat, which he did not. It was on the U.S.S. White Plains where Patton was declared missing and, after which. the U.S. military has not indicated in official casualty lists Patton's ultimate fate).
bold mine
You have been in this process for over 2 years. At what part of the process do you currently find yourself? On what date did you order the file? Certainly it was sometime in Fall 2011....
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Brad Hudson wrote:Sorry, I missed the "in the process of" part. When did you send in the form?
I am in the process of determining what form to send in and how to do it. In fact, I just made inquiries about that to an individual who may know how that process works. You don't have to say you're "sorry" for anything since I didn't say I had sent in the form. Nice try as sly. :)
Soooo... Apparently religious leaders are verboten from telling anecdotes?
Interesting... Maybe Mr. Monson took his queue from Jesus. ;)
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Steve Benson wrote: Ahem. I have answered that question earlier in this posting series. I would urge you to go back read through it. I said I was in the process of trying to get hold of Patton's entire military service record, then noted the records that I have seen--including his enlistment card and his on-ship crew records for the U.S.S. White Plains (the latter which deal with his on-board presence or lack thereof, transfers and status. It was aboard the U.S.S. White Plains where Monson claimed Patton perished in combat, which he did not. It was on the U.S.S. White Plains where Patton was declared missing and, after which. the U.S. military has not indicated in official casualty lists Patton's ultimate fate).
bold mine
You have been in this process for over 2 years. At what part of the process do you currently find yourself? On what date did you order the file? Certainly it was sometime in Fall 2011....
I put it on hold after going through collecting a wealth of data. As I have told others, it's not the gathering of it that is daunting; it is the organization and presentation that is the challenge. I am presently writing up the final structured outline and will be filling it in with relevant details in specific categories, including sources.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
