Word of Wisdom - the wheat problem....

[_DarkHelmet]

Being a member of the church is like striving to become a Monk or a Jedi.

I like the Jedi analogy. Star Wars and Mormonism are similar in that they're both fiction, but Star Wars is so much funner.

[_Equality]

Not missing the point, I answered the question. Yes, they would sign the temple recommend.

Harry Reid has nothing to do with the conversation. I guess all those poor folks who smoked or drank alcohol or coffee or tea and missed out on going to the temple were just delusional. They actually had their TRs signed and attended their daughters' weddings, for example. No Mormons are ever shut out of the temple for violating the WoW, as long as they tell their leaders that they keep the WoW. They can sit there and smoke during the interview, but as long as they say they keep the WoW, they won't be denied a TR (or, if they are, they can just appeal to a higher authority who will rebuke the priesthood leader and give the smoker or winebibber their TR). Hey, that might be the church I wanted to be a member of, but it really doesn't resemble the one I actually was a member of. It's certainly possible that your own local leaders have such a liberal view of the WoW. That's great. If you think that's how it is church-wide, you are daft.

[_Sethbag]

Dude, anyone who was raised in or lived as an active member in the Mormon church for more than 15 minutes knows that it is not considered obeying the "word of wisdom" to drink any alcoholic beverage, or any tea made from the tea plant (ie: camellia sinensis, not so-called herbal teas) . Are you really the only Mormon who didn't get the memo?

No, apparently none of the members in Japan or Korea got this memo either. Nor did my American mission president when I served in Japan. Ant not just with regards to tea, but alcohol as well, as Japanese cuisine includes a number of fermented foods, such as Nato, which contain alcohol. Missionaries were openly encouraged to eat Nato because it is healthy, and also because it was a very culturally immersive thing to do. I ate that stuff almost every morning with breakfast.

Apparently Aqua Hound would like us to think that a glass of wine is fine according to the Mormons, because there is some confusion over whether the following dish is an alcoholic beverage:

(ie: camellia sinensis, not so-called herbal teas)

ROFLMAO!! Let's see "camellia sinensis" on lds.org anywhere. I await the link.

You need to read up on your Brigham Young, who explained early on that "hot drinks" meant coffee and tea, and that the tea referred to was the infusion made in hot water of the tea plant. I specified camellia sinensis in order to avoid any ambiguity in what "tea plant" was being referred to. That shouldn't be necessary, as 170something years worth of Mormons had no problem understanding what was being referred to, but the pharisaical language lawyer pedants like you will find any loophole you can, however tiny and obscure, if you think it'll help you get away with something you really want to do.

And such is the same for "alcohol" or "alcoholic beverages". Where is the defining threshold? Are we supposed to have all of our foods tested in a lab? What is the precise % alcohol content that breaks the WOW? In the text of the WOW, in D&C 89, it specifically says that MILD drinks are good. Mild drink = 19th century beer, a.k.a. ale, which Joseph Smith and all the presidents and other leaders of the church drank right up until prohibition.

Show for me the official church revelation which rescinds "mild drinks" from the WOW.

[/quote]
Is it meet that the Lord should define the laboratory protocols enabling you to be scrupulously strict in your interpretations while still managing to get away with whatever you really want to do, in all things?

You seriously think that a glass of wine is fine because some rotten beans in Japan, or a loaf of bread, contain a few molecules of alcohol, and therefor we can't know for certain whether they are an alcoholic beverage?

Seek help.

[_CameronMO]

Seek help.

http://addictionrecovery.lds.org/?lang=eng

[_Equality]

Such an attitude itself is demonstrative of someone not keeping the WOW.

Ha! Guilty as charged.

Is observance of the Word of Wisdom necessary? The Brethren have long felt that it certainly must be. Observance of the Word of Wisdom is concerned with the care of one’s body, which, the Lord has assured, is of itself a temple, a tabernacle of the spirit. He has said, “Yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.” (D&C 93:35.)

I recall a bishop telling me of a woman who came to get a recommend. When asked if she observed the Word of Wisdom, she said that she occasionally drank a cup of coffee. She said, “Now, bishop, you’re not going to let that keep me from going to the temple, are you?” To which he replied, “Sister, surely you will not let a cup of coffee stand between you and the House of the Lord.”

Poor Gordy, he just didn't understand the doctrine of the church as well as our pal Water Dog.

[_CameronMO]

Remember, Equality, that may not be doctrine.
I gave up on WD when I read this:

If this is really how you think, you don't understand what constitutes revelation and official doctrine. Conference talks, pamphlets, sunday school manuals, CES institute manuals, and the like, ARE NOT official doctrine.

viewtopic.php?p=786264#p786264

[_CameronMO]

Did I say a glass of wine is fine? Nope, said no such thing. And the fermented (not rotten) beans in Japan don't contain a simple few molecules of alcohol. It has a real % which can be measured into the single digits. It plainly smells alcoholic when you open the lid. The longer you let it sit, the more alcoholic it gets.

I'm not going to define wine as being good or bad. What wine? Define wine. To me wine is against the WOW, or at least the more commercialized types which are of a high alcoholic content. I've never drunk anything called wine. The point is that there is no definition. The WOW is a spiritual law which carries a lot more meaning than some letter of the law rules created by a church member back in the 1920s. There is a spirit to the WOW. Do you honestly think that getting wasted on wine is keeping the WOW? No, it's not. It's plainly not. I am not arguing in favor of some kind of loop hole that allows people to keep a TR while doing whatever the heck they want. If that's the childish interpretation perhaps we do need a letter of the law. If you aren't being honest with yourself and aren't capable of determining, for yourself, whether your actions are in keeping with the WOW, well heck, you shouldn't be going to the temple as the concept of eternal progression is way above your head.

So, in the spirit of keeping the spiritual law, you partake of alcohol through food and drink, as well as drink tea. Got it.

[Guest]

The question I keep asking my self (and my spouse) is "Is drinking a glass of wine a day a sin?"

Thoughts?

Edit: This is not a wheat question, sorry - I can start a new thread if necessary.

[_Equality]

I find it intriguing that critics of the church are so hell bent on "the church" being bad or wrong. You guys argue against my thoughts on the WOW more passionately that active LDS members do! I've found members in the church to mostly be receptive of my thoughts on the WOW. They go home and ponder them and come back thanking me later for giving them a new perspective. And this goes back to a comment I made on another thread, that most critics [of the church] are not interested in truth but have ulterior motives. Even if you disagree with the truth of the church, if you were "truth seekers" I would expect you to applaud my take on the WOW. Hey, maybe those Mormons aren't so bad, maybe they're not the lemmings we think they are. Maybe there is hope for them yet. Instead you want to excommunicate me from a church you say you don't even believe in, lol.

Dude, I am not arguing against your interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. If you think the WoW should be read liberally, more power to ya. I think the early leaders of the church, including Joseph Smith himself, interpreted it way more liberally than you do. My argument is not with you saying you keep the word of wisdom while occasionally drinking tea or alcoholic beverages. My argument is with you asserting that leaders in the church who have control over whether individual members get temple recommends or not are unlikely to view it the way you do, and that if you revealed your consumption of things, even in a small amount, that are taught by leaders of the church and understood by members of the church to be strictly verboten, you would be in danger of not receiving a temple recommend. You have said that your leaders are liberal enough to give you a TR. That's great. I think they are exceptional in that regard. If the woman in Hinckley's story had said "I drink some coffee occasionally, but have no addiction to it, so I believe I am living the Word of Wisdom" she still would be denied a TR by a great many Bishops or Stake Presidents (whose leaders would no doubt back them up). And no, I don't want to excommunicate you from your church. Where did you get that idea? I have no problem at all with you going to the temple. Hell, I think anyone who wants to go ought to be able to go (not sure why anyone would want to, but, hey, different strokes and all that).

Just don't try to sell Mormonism as something it ain't. That won't fly round these parts. We know better.

[_Res Ipsa]

Well I'm not sure if the President Monson understands the differences between those questions or not. To be honest, I don't understand the difference between them. They are the same question. The question isn't "Do I, the Bishop, think you are honest in your dealings with your fellow man?" If I'm not being asked to assess myself, then why am I being asked questions? Instead the Bishop should be issuing me his ruling.

I would love to hear any man explain how impregnating a woman he isn't married to is in keeping with the law of chastity. Show me that man. This is what disciplinary councils are for. If something arises which is open to interpretation either in assessing the crime or the penalty, we form a council. As a matter of official policy councils are never formed for WOW issues... gee, I wonder why?

How does John Huntsman keep his TR? Working for the state department he has consumed liquor over in China as part of cultural ceremonies, even on video! Is there an exception in the WOW for ambassadors I'm not aware of?

So, when LDS bishops are described as "judges in zion" what it really means is "rubber stampers in zion..." Strange that they ask specific questions rather than just asking "are you temple worthy?" and rubber stamping that.

You keep trying to change the subject to democratic politicians.... We call that a "red herring." As far as I know Reed, Huntsman or their bishops are participating in the conversation. If they were, you could ask them. Maybe Huntman rationalized his drinking just like you did and simply answered "yes." Maybe he specifically disclosed it to his bishop. Who knows? Not me or you.