The Word of Wisdom was never Doctrine

[_Bazooka]

So you are so nitpicky as to hinge your salvation on placement of a comma?

Not even close. My salvation hinges on the atonement of Jesus Christ.

-7up

Not it doesn't. Your salvation hinges upon your obedience to the laws and ordinances of Mormonism.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Your position on meat and the wisdom of wisdom hinges on....All that is being asked of you is that you provide one official quote or reference that says the meat consumption part of the word of wisdom can be ignored. Just one.

[_seven7up]

You have been shown countless examples, not least of which is section 89 itself, that there is indeed doctrine stating restrictions on meat consumption.

The concept of "winter/famine" is not taught beyond section 89, and as I just demonstrated, that interpretation is suspect to begin with, and instead may have been originally meant to teach that we should eat some meat, "sparingly", all year long.

All that is being asked of you is that you provide one official quote or reference that says the meat consumption part of the word of wisdom can be ignored.

Perhaps YOU should provide an official quote that says that we members, in modern times, should be expected to eat meat only in winter/famine.

-7up

[_seven7up]

So you are so nitpicky as to hinge your salvation on placement of a comma?

Not even close. My salvation hinges on the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Not it doesn't. Your salvation hinges upon your obedience to the laws and ordinances of Mormonism.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (emphasis added by seven7up)

There is no access to salvation without the atonement, even IF we were obedient to the laws.

All that is being asked of you is that you provide one official quote or reference that says the meat consumption part of the word of wisdom can be ignored. Just one.

I did better than that. I showed that the interpretation that you are proposing concerning "winter/famine" may be entirely wrong to begin with.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
verses 14 and 15—

All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

This sentence says what could be eaten in times of famine and excess hunger. We read here that grain is the staff of life, and that it is good for man and also for beasts of the field, and also for all wild animals. What does "these" refer to? Wild animals. These [wild animals] hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger. Wild animals may be used for food only when other sources are not available. This agrees with Section 49 verse 21—
And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.
It also agrees with D&C 49:18-19—
And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

Since he whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God, it would be inconsistent to interpret Section 89 as directing that man should abstain from meats except in emergency/winter/famine.

Also see that the beasts of the field are differentiated from wild animals. (See 2 Nephi 2:15; D&C 59:16; 88:14; 101:42; Moses 5:1; Ex 23:11; Deut.7:22, etc.) The beasts "of the field" are referring to domesticated animals.

So, LDS can eat meat of domesticated animals sparingly, but at any season of the year.

Now the onus is on you to find teachings outside section 89 which says otherwise.

-7up

[_seven7up]

You want quotes on an official LDS source, that discusses how we should apply the WoW in our lives.

Allow me to post you some excerpts from an article in the official church magazine, Ensign. Earlier, I said that it would be good for the LDS to emphasize the "Dos" of the word of wisdom rather than the "don't's" This is from the 1970s, so that idea is not new. It is called "The Do’s in the Word of Wisdom" by Lora Beth Larson, instructor in the Department of Food Science and Nutrition:
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"One key to understanding some of the positive recommendations in the Word of Wisdom may be found by looking at dietary practices in America during the early 1800s, keeping in mind that vitamins were not even discovered until the twentieth century! It was hard to preserve fruits and vegetables for more than a few months, and they were usually eaten before spring. A physician wrote from California in 1854 that the worst enemy of early settlers was not weather, hardships of travel, or hostile Indians—but scurvy, ..."

Near the beginning of the article, the author starts with what? Historical Context! Some perspective that I have been advocating in this discussion. So, what does the article say about meat?

"Meat was especially important in wintertime when other foods were less plentiful and when the cold weather helped preserve meat."

This is the first mention in the article about meat. Notice that it is all about historical context and the inability to preserve meat in the winter. Here, there is no mention of a modern day relevance in the sense that now we should not eat meat except in winter/famine. Let us continue:

"The Lord instructs us to use these foods “in the season thereof,” when they are at their peak nutritionally and in flavor, texture, and color. With our increased knowledge, we can extend the “season” to last throughout the entire year by canning, drying, freezing, and cold temperature storage, as well as pickling, salting, and preserving."

Please note again, that there is a contrast given, between the situation of the earlier pioneers and we, in modern times, who have more knowledge and technology. This next comment is very interesting:

"Some people enjoy herbal teas, but even these should not replace more nutritious drinks in the diet. Always tell your physician if you are taking any herbal teas and know what the tea contains if possible. Recently an association has been identified between herbal teas and cancer of the esophagus, but further research is needed. 3 In Utah, in the summer of 1976, three deaths were attributed to the overuse of herbs. 4 When dealing with severe or chronic illnesses, be especially wary of herbal treatments or remedies that have not been proven effective through scientific studies."

Please notice that the passage admits that LDS drink different kinds of herbal tea, and this is not prohibited by the article. It is only advised that Mormons should be careful in the consumption of substances with unknown qualities, and that we should pay attention to scientific studies.

By the way, this article provides example after example of how the detractors and critics of the LDS on this forum have been falsely accusing the church of being anti-science and not providing updated information about health and nutrition or how to apply the WoW in modern times.

Let's go back to the article and back to the meat discussion, after quoting D&C 89:12–13:

We realize that the Word of Wisdom does not advocate total vegetarianism when we read another scripture:
“And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;
“For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.” (D&C 49:18–19; see also 1 Tim. 4:1–3.)
What is meat’s nutritional value? It contains good quality protein and iron. The general nutritional composition of eggs is enough like meat that they are considered a “meat alternate.” Milk and cheeses are also high in protein, but contain calcium instead of iron. Dried peas and beans such as pigeon peas, navy beans, and soybeans contain moderate to high quality protein as well as some iron, so these may be used as meat alternates.

Grains contain less protein than most of these other foods; it’s also of poorer quality. However, grain protein contributes to the day’s total, especially when eaten with meat or meat alternates. Vegetables contain only small amounts of protein, and fruits practically none at all. Thus a diet which relies totally on grains, fruits, and vegetables usually means protein deficiency.

In addition to protein, meats provide us with several of the vitamins in the vitamin B group: thiamin, niacin, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, pyridoxine. One member of this group, vitamin B12, is found only in meat, milk, cheese, and eggs; thus strict vegetarians must take a vitamin B12 supplement to avoid eventual irreversible damage to their spinal cord. Meats also contribute to a full feeling after a meal, because they contain some fat, which stays in our stomach longer than the other nutrients.

Let's summarize so far. The CONTEXT of pioneer living has been contrasted with the modern life and technology. LDS are encouraged to be careful in what they consume and to pay attention to modern science. Two scriptures are given which say that it is o.k. to eat meat, and then the benefits of eating meat are given.

Now comes the part which explains that meat should be consumed sparingly and please note that, again, this section starts with a contrast between modern life and those living in the 1800s:

However, we are admonished to use meat sparingly. This caution is certainly understandable considering how heavily nineteenth-century Americans relied on meat when the Word of Wisdom was given. But even in our day of more balanced diets, we are aware of some problems when the meat intake is very high, as advocated by some dieters or by athletes who do not understand muscle physiology.

When meat makes up the main part of our food intake, we crowd out other foods and, consequently, their nutrients. In a recent extreme example, a widower had milk for breakfast, a hamburger for lunch, and steak for dinner. He disliked onions and other vegetables, thought potatoes were “fattening,” and was not interested in fruit. He developed scurvy!

Meats are also sources of fat, primarily saturated fat, and cholesterol. People who need to cut down their total calories may need to cut down on the total amount of fat in their diet. Individuals who have some of the risk factors associated with cardiovascular disease may need to limit their intake of saturated fat and cholesterol as well as total fat and calories. Table 1 shows the fat and cholesterol content of some foods, but individual recommendations for intake vary.

There we find a teaching on eating meat sparingly, and then explains some reasons why. Next the article quotes D&C 89:14–17, then starts with what we can substitute for meat, and then tosses in ANOTHER benefit of meat, iron:

High-quality protein should provide approximately one-third to one-half of the recommended intake. Thus, someone could cut down on meat and milk by increasing consumption of beans, nuts, and cereal products. In making such substitutions, however, we should remember that meats are some of the best sources of iron, and that milk and cheeses are the best sources of calcium in the typical Western diet.... (later) ... Since grain has less protein—and it’s lower quality than the protein in meat, eggs, milk, cheese, dried beans, and dried peas—we get the most out of grain if we combine it with high-quality protein. Nonetheless, grains do add significant protein, as well as thiamin, niacin, riboflavin, and iron, although the iron in grains is not as readily absorbed as the iron in meat..

Now to the part YOU'VE been waiting for:

We are told in Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 89:12–13] that the use of meats is more appropriate during times of winter, cold, or famine. Why? We’re not certain. Our present knowledge about the body’s protein requirement suggests that we need the same amount of protein throughout the year, although we can certainly emphasize different sources in different seasons. In this area as in others, there’s definitely room for additional research.

While the author has the same typical interpretation of "winter/famine", she admits that we don't know why it would say that. Then she says that science seems to contradict that concept, because what seems to make sense is that we should have protein throughout the whole year.

Therefore, the more reasonable, which I provided in previous posts, is the explanation is that it is a misinterpretation of the text to begin with. The Ensign does not appear to advocate the concept of eating meat only in winter, the author kind of brushes it a side, and says more research is needed, and then moves on. Perhaps a realization that the comma, which was added later, (and very few people know this) is all that is needed in order to resolve the issue.

In general, the article is PRO-Meat, as long as used "sparingly".

D&C 89:14–17

Sometimes we focus on the phrase “wheat for man” without realizing that the Lord twice describes “all grain” as for our use. Wheat does not grow well in all parts of the world, and there are good alternate grains in most climates. Each grain provides a slightly different combination of nutrients (see Table 3), but they are similar enough that we can group them together to include them regularly in our diet.

A note for the other thread on wheat. Notice how she deemphasized "wheat", even though she did not discuss that modern wheat is not the same as it was 30-40 years ago. Perhaps this was not known in the 1970s, but she deemphasized wheat it anyways.

-7up

[_seven7up]

Further along in section 49 it states: "And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need". How is that verse currently interpreted?

Sorry, I missed your post earlier.

I think that killing "for sport" without actually using the animal for productive purposes would fall under that category.

-7up

[_seven7up]

"Hot Drinks" is 'interpreted to mean'... (coffee and tea)

That wasn't an interpretation that came out in modern times. That was the interpretation from the beginning:

In 1842, Smith's brother Hyrum, who was the Assistant President of the Church and its presiding patriarch, provided an interpretation of the Word of Wisdom's proscription of "hot drinks":

And again "hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;" there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.

LDS missionary and hymnographer Joel H. Johnson in 1881, Joseph Smith repeated:

I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said "hot drinks" in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom .... Tea and coffee ... are what the Lord meant when He said "hot drinks."

-7up

[_grindael]

“The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those regulations apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so compelling that no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. If you do not, you cannot go to the house of the Lord until you are fully worthy.” (Boyd K. Packer, “The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises”, Ensign, May 1996)

These guys are never going to give up their forced (compelled) regulations that keep the Corporate Members in line. Not unless they financially disadvantage the Corporation.

[_ludwigm]

"Hot Drinks" is 'interpreted to mean'... (coffee and tea)

That wasn't an interpretation that came out in modern times. That was the interpretation from the beginning:

In 1842, Smith's brother Hyrum, who was the Assistant President of the Church and its presiding patriarch, provided an interpretation of the Word of Wisdom's proscription of "hot drinks":

And again "hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;" there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.

LDS missionary and hymnographer Joel H. Johnson in 1881, Joseph Smith repeated:

I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said "hot drinks" in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom .... Tea and coffee ... are what the Lord meant when He said "hot drinks."

-7up

Interpretation? Horse is interpreted as tapir?

hot
American Heritage Dictionary:
(hŏt) pronunciation
adj., hot·ter, hot·test.

Having or giving off heat; capable of burning.
Being at a high temperature.
Being at or exhibiting a temperature that is higher than normal or desirable: a hot forehead.
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/hot

Here is no place for any interpretation.
Words have their meaning --- even in Utahn version of English.

Instead interpretations, why don't religious nuts use definitions?
X entity means THIS. No opportunity to misinterpret, no opportunity to misunderstand.

Do You want an exact example?
Every realization of "C" programming language has an unambiguous rule to decide if a certain string is a valid identifier or is not.

Do You want a religious example - a stupid one, by the way?
Exodus 23:19 (and Exodus 34:26 ... this is soooo important) Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
This is interpreted by orthodox Jews as "don't marry a mother and her daughter" --- got it? marriage is the same as cooking, and females are simply goats.

May I mention that Joseph Smith has broken the orthodox interpretation of this law?

[_grindael]

Fun facts brought to you by Mormon "authorities":

We have heard considerable of late, especially since twelve months today, on the subject of the Word of Wisdom. Almost every elder who has spoken from this stand has felt the necessity and importance of calling the attention of the people to this subject. We are told, and very plainly too, that hot drinks—tea, coffee, chocolate, cocoa and all drinks of this kind are not good for man. We are also told that alcoholic drinks are not good, and that tobacco when either smoked or chewed is an evil. We are told that swine's flesh is not good, and that we should dispense with it; and we are told that flesh of any kind is not suitable to man in the summer time, and ought to be eaten sparingly in the winter. The question arises in the minds of a great many people, “What then are we to eat if we drop swine's flesh and eat very little beef or mutton, and cannot drink tea or coffee, why, dear me, we shall starve to death.” In conversation with one of the brethren the other day, he remarked “the diet of the poor is principally bread and meat, and if they dispense with meat, they will be reduced to very hard fare.” I reasoned with him on the subject, and before we had got through, I believe I convinced him that other articles of food could be raised more cheaply and in greater variety than the flesh of animals. But just at the present time we are destitute, to some extent, of this needed variety; and, hence, the very apparent necessity that we as a people should turn our attention to the multiplication of varieties of food in our midst. We should not confine ourselves to a few articles of diet and be content therewith; but the people who have the opportunity of so doing should cultivate a variety of food for the benefit of themselves and families.

It is a fact, which the experience of ages has confirmed, that man of all creatures, requires the greatest variety of food. His stomach is fitted to digest a greater variety of food than the stomach of any other animal. God has created him lord of creation, and all that is created around us is created for man's use and benefit. It would therefore be very unwise for intelligent man, inasmuch as God has given to him the vegetable creation, and has made him lord of the animal creation and placed him as monarch of the finny tribes, to be content to sit down and eat as our degraded Indians do. ...

My theory is, that if we wish to raise a healthy, noble looking, intellectual and perfect race of men and women we must feed our children properly. We must prevent the use by them of every article that is hurtful or noxious in its nature. We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious. I do not believe that you could ever make as great and noble race of men, if you feed them on one article of food alone, as if you gave them a variety of diet. We have illustrations of this in India, where the chief diet is rice—of itself a very good article of food. We have other illustrations in the case of other races. A people who, for instance, are fed on potatoes alone do not have the stamina that they would have if they had a greater variety of food. Such a people could, I believe, be kept subjected more easily to thralldom than a nation which is better fed. The millions of India are kept in subjection by as many thousands of Europeans. There are doubtless many causes for this, among the chief of which is their diet. ("Apostle" George Q. Cannon, JOD 12:221-223)

IMPORTANT ITEMS FOR GIRLS TO KNOW

Teach them to be saving, to stick to the land. Teach the girls what girls should be taught. I don’t care how much money we have, the girls should be taught how to work and earn their living; how to make a batch of good bread; how to make a bowl of good soup; what to do with baby when it has the colic. (Laughter.) They don’t know. Where is there one in a hundred who is taught these things? Oh, bless your soul; oh, no, not that, but only book learning! Why, these are some of the most important things in the world for a girl to know. If I were a young fellow seeking a girl to marry I wouldn’t care whether she could tell me all about these book things–how far it is, say, from here to the moon–what do I what do I care about that? What I would want to know is: “Can you make good soup?” (Laughter.) “If you can’t you’re not the kind of a girl I want.” (Charles Nibley, Conference Report, April 1923, p.149).

I hope it's COLD soup...

With reference to cola drinks, the Mormon Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided. ~1972 Priesthood Bulletin

We have had this Word of Wisdom thirty-five years last February, and the whole people have not yet learned to observe it after the true spirit and meaning of it. There is within a few years past a great improvement in this, so much so that I very much doubt whether a tobacco spittle could be found upon the floor of this tabernacle after this congregation is dismissed. Tobacco is not good to receive into the human system; hot drinks are not good. We will use cold drinks to allay thirst and warm drinks for medicine. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol. 12, p.209, May 10, 1868)

First, wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and [b]hot drinks[/b] are mentioned as being, “Not good in the sight of our Father.” Because tea and coffee are not mentioned, some excuse themselves in their use, for they say they do not take them hot. I heard a brother sometime ago, perhaps to justify himself in his desire to indulge his appetite, say that he would not be surprised if someone would come along and attempt to forbid the use of hot soup. I told him provision had already been made for that. (Elder David A. Smith, Conference Report, April 1930, p.85).

Contrast to what Paul taught,

“Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations — “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using — according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.” (Colossians 2:20-23)

[_Bazooka]

This sentence says what could be eaten in times of famine and excess hunger. We read here that grain is the staff of life, and that it is good for man and also for beasts of the field, and also for all wild animals. What does "these" refer to? Wild animals. These [wild animals] hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger. Wild animals may be used for food only when other sources are not available. This agrees with Section 49 verse 21—
And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.
It also agrees with D&C 49:18-19—
And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

Since he whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God, it would be inconsistent to interpret Section 89 as directing that man should abstain from meats except in emergency/winter/famine.

7up, you should really look before you leap....

1. The context for verse 18 is verse 19: “For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air … [are] ordained for the use of man for food.” Section 49 was specifically directed to members of the United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing (the Shakers) to correct some of their erroneous doctrines. One of their beliefs was not to eat flesh-meat or fish.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... +wisdom#1-

Section 49
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Sidney Rigdon, Parley P. Pratt, and Leman Copley, at Kirtland, Ohio, May 7, 1831. Leman Copley had embraced the gospel but still held to some of the teachings of the Shakers (United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing), to which he had formerly belonged. Some of the beliefs of the Shakers were that Christ’s Second Coming had already occurred and that He had appeared in the form of a woman, Ann Lee. They did not consider baptism by water essential. They rejected marriage and believed in a life of total celibacy. Some Shakers also forbade the eating of meat. In prefacing this revelation, Joseph Smith’s history states, “In order to have [a] more perfect understanding on the subject, I inquired of the Lord, and received the following.” The revelation refutes some of the basic concepts of the Shaker group. The aforementioned brethren took a copy of the revelation to the Shaker community (near Cleveland, Ohio) and read it to them in its entirety, but it was rejected.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 9?lang=eng

Section 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.

You will note that the Word of Wisdom dates AFTER the date for section 49 and therefore supersedes it.

The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those regulations apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so compelling that no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. If you do not, you cannot go to the house of the Lord until you are fully worthy.

Boyd K Packer 1996

And finally, the current Gospel Topics section cautions....

The best course is to completely avoid the substances that the Lord prohibits in the Word of Wisdom.

https://www.lds.org/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng