Bible verse by verse

[_huckelberry]

The Christian faith is not based upon the Bible. The Bible is not its source or foundation. The foundation is the life words death and resurrection of Jesus. Upon that foundation is built the witness of the people he chose as apostles . That witness grows into the faith of the communities founded in the first century which continue to this day. The foundation is that living body. The Bible is a record of those experiences and is an assistant to them. It has been the experience of the church that the Holy Spirit uses the scripture to grow faith. Outside of these , community of faith and Holy Spirit the Bible is a human book like millions of other human books.

When you say 'Holy Spirit' what do you mean?

Holy Spirit is third person of the Trinity or in Mormon speak Godhead. I suspect you were not really questioning that but you were not more specific.

If you meant how can I distinguish between the Holy Spirit and other things like influence of people around me.Answer is I do not feel able to know all of the time. I trust understanding more than feelings but do not completely reject either.

[_Bazooka]

The Christian faith is not based upon the Bible. The Bible is not its source or foundation. The foundation is the life words death and resurrection of Jesus. Upon that foundation is built the witness of the people he chose as apostles . That witness grows into the faith of the communities founded in the first century which continue to this day. The foundation is that living body. The Bible is a record of those experiences and is an assistant to them. It has been the experience of the church that the Holy Spirit uses the scripture to grow faith. Outside of these , community of faith and Holy Spirit the Bible is a human book like millions of other human books.

When you say 'Holy Spirit' what do you mean?

Holy Spirit is third person of the Trinity or in Mormon speak Godhead. I suspect you were not really questioning that but you were not more specific.

If you meant how can I distinguish between the Holy Spirit and other things like influence of people around me.Answer is I do not feel able to know all of the time. I trust understanding more than feelings but do not completely reject either.

In what specific and demonstrable ways is the Holy Spirit different to confirmation bias?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I am not inclined to believe your statement. I find I can agree to the extent that I see that at least without a person allowing the possibility of God existing then their coming to believe Christianity is unlikely.

However I have a hard time not hearing you claim that I am unable to make any reasonable distinction between stories and the real world. Its as if I read Moby Dick and just up and believe there are whales in the ocean.

Do you agree that there is a fundamental difference between the magical & supernatural world of the Bible versus the somewhat less than magical and supernatural world we live in?

For example...

The World of the Bible:

• Face to face conversation with Yahweh
• Face to face conversation with the Devil
• Yahweh performs dramatic, spectacular miracles
• The Devil also performs miracles, but not as good as Yahweh
• Swift and bloody punishment if you piss Yahweh off

The "Real World":

• Not so much

In other words, the god of the "real world" is fundamentally different from the god of the Bible...assuming either of these gods actually exist. I think it goes without saying that many Christians are unable or unwilling to make a reasonable distinction between the "real world" and the world of the Bible.

Can you still be a Christian if you only believe in the god of the "real world"?

I don't think so.

[_huckelberry]

In what specific and demonstrable ways is the Holy Spirit different to confirmation bias?

I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a truth test so I am comfortable knowing that I cannot always clearly distinguish. It might be observed that confirmation bias can easily lead to atheism.

[_Bazooka]

I cannot always clearly distinguish.

This suggests that there are times when you can clearly distinguish.
So I repeat my question....what are the specific distinguishing features that clearly make the experience one of Holy Spirit?

[_huckelberry]

I cannot always clearly distinguish.

This suggests that there are times when you can clearly distinguish.
So I repeat my question....what are the specific distinguishing features that clearly make the experience one of Holy Spirit?

I doubt that I can. Why would I want to? What experience are you asking about? I have not proposed that there is some sort of experience to guarantee this that or the other is true. I would be inclined to be cautious about something even similar to that.

On the other hand there can be times when God speaks and whatever being hit with that bolt is, it isn't confirmation bias or any remotely like that. even if that bolt of light is not actually some divine thing but some more natural personal phenomena its message is difficult to dismiss..

[_huckelberry]

Do you agree that there is a fundamental difference between the magical & supernatural world of the Bible versus the somewhat less than magical and supernatural world we live in?

For example...

The World of the Bible:

• Face to face conversation with Yahweh
• Face to face conversation with the Devil
• Yahweh performs dramatic, spectacular miracles
• The Devil also performs miracles, but not as good as Yahweh
• Swift and bloody punishment if you piss Yahweh off

The "Real World":

• Not so much

In other words, the god of the "real world" is fundamentally different from the god of the Bible...assuming either of these gods actually exist. I think it goes without saying that many Christians are unable or unwilling to make a reasonable distinction between the "real world" and the world of the Bible.

Can you still be a Christian if you only believe in the god of the "real world"?

I don't think so.

EroticApologist,

I think what you refer to as the Bible view is the kind of picture of events in Exodus to the death of Moses. I think the thousand year period following that in which the Bible was actually was written people saw and experienced the world like we do and spent time thinking about the contrast you mention. That question is much of the subject of the Old Testament. Why is God slow to stop the wicked?. What sort of miracles does God still do? I think it is the problem of the God of the real world which you mention which drove thinking into Christianity. .

[_LittleNipper]

1 Samuel 28:1-25 About that time the Philistines mustered their armies for another war with Israel. King Achish told David, “You and your men will be expected to join me in battle.” David agreed. “Now you will see for yourself what we can do.” Achish made David his personal bodyguard for life. Meanwhile, Samuel had died, and was buried in Ramah, his hometown. And Saul had banned from the land of Israel all mediums and those who consult the spirits of the dead.

The Philistines set up their camp at Shunem, and Saul gathered all the army of Israel and camped at Gilboa. When Saul saw the vast Philistine army, he became frantic with fear. He asked the Lord what he should do, but the Lord refused to answer him, either by dreams or by sacred lots or by the prophets. Saul then said to his advisers, “Find a woman who is a medium, so I can go and ask her what to do.”

His advisers informed Saul of a medium at Endor. Saul disguises himself by wearing ordinary clothing instead of royal robes. He traveled to the woman’s home at night, accompanied by two of his men.
“I have to talk to a man who has died,” he said. “Will you call up his spirit for me?”

“Are you trying to get me killed?” the woman demanded. “You know that Saul has outlawed all the mediums and all who consult the spirits of the dead. Why are you setting a trap for me?” Saul took an oath in the name of the Lord and promised, “As surely as the Lord lives, nothing bad will happen to you for doing this.”

Finally, the woman ask him whose spirit did he wanted conjured? Saul asked for Samuel. When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed, “You’ve deceived me! You are Saul!” “Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?” “I see a god coming up out of the earth,” she said. “What does he look like?” Saul asked. “He is an old man wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him.

“Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul. “Because I am in deep trouble,” Saul replied. “The Philistines are at war with me, and God has left me and won’t reply by prophets or dreams. So I have called for you to tell me what to do.” But Samuel replied, “Why ask me, since the Lord has left you and has become your enemy? The Lord has done just as he said he would. He has torn the kingdom from you and given it to your rival, David. The Lord has done this to you today because you refused to carry out his fierce anger against the Amalekites. What’s more, the Lord will hand you and the army of Israel over to the Philistines tomorrow, and you and your sons will be here with me. The Lord will bring down the entire army of Israel in defeat.”

Saul fell full length on the ground, paralyzed with fright because of Samuel’s words. He was also faint with hunger, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night. When the woman saw how distraught he was, she said, “Sir, I obeyed your command at the risk of my life. Now do what I say, and let me give you a little something to eat so you can regain your strength for the trip back.”

Saul refused to eat anything. Then his advisers joined the woman in urging him to eat, so he finally yielded and got up from the ground and sat on the couch. The woman had been fattening a calf, so she hurried out and killed it. She took some flour, kneaded it into dough and baked unleavened bread. She brought the meal to Saul and his advisers, and they ate it. Then they went out into the night.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And it cometh to pass in those days, that the Philistines gather their camps for the war, to fight against Israel, and Achish saith unto David, `Thou dost certainly know that with me thou dost go out into the camp, thou and thy men.'

2 And David saith unto Achish, `Therefore -- thou dost know that which thy servant dost do.' And Achish saith unto David, `Therefore -- keeper of my head I do appoint thee all the days.'

3 And Samuel hath died, and all Israel mourn for him, and bury him in Ramah, even in his city, and Saul hath turned aside those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

4 And the Philistines are gathered, and come in, and encamp in Shunem, and Saul gathereth all Israel, and they encamp in Gilboa,

5 and Saul seeth the camp of the Philistines, and feareth, and his heart trembleth greatly,

6 and Saul asketh at Jehovah, and Jehovah hath not answered him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets.

7 And Saul saith to his servants, `Seek for me a woman possessing a familiar spirit, and I go unto her, and inquire of her;' and his servants say unto him, `Lo, a woman possessing a familiar spirit in En-dor.'

8 And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'

9 And the woman saith unto him, `Lo, thou hast known that which Saul hath done, that he hath cut off those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land; and why art thou laying a snare for my soul -- to put me to death?'

10 And Saul sweareth to her by Jehovah, saying, `Jehovah liveth, punishment doth not meet thee for this thing.'

11 And the woman saith, `Whom do I bring up to thee?' and he saith, `Samuel -- bring up to me.'

12 And the woman seeth Samuel, and crieth with a loud voice, and the woman speaketh unto Saul, saying, `Why hast thou deceived me -- and thou Saul?'

13 And the king saith to her, `Do not fear; for what hast thou seen?' and the woman saith unto Saul, `Gods I have seen coming up out of the earth.'

14 And he saith to her, `What [is] his form?' and she saith, `An aged man is coming up, and he [is] covered with an upper robe;' and Saul knoweth that he [is] Samuel, and boweth -- face to thee earth -- and doth obeisance.

15 And Samuel saith unto Saul, `Why hast thou troubled me, to bring me up?' And Saul saith, `I have great distress, and the Philistines are fighting against me, God hath turned aside from me, and hath not answered me any more, either by the hand of the prophets, or by dreams; and I call for thee to let me know what I do.'

16 And Samuel saith, `And why dost thou ask me, and Jehovah hath turned aside from thee, and is thine enemy?

17 And Jehovah doth for Himself as He hath spoken by my hand, and Jehovah rendeth the kingdom out of thy hand, and giveth it to thy neighbour -- to David.

18 Because thou hast not hearkened to the voice of Jehovah, nor didst the fierceness of His anger on Amalek -- therefore this thing hath Jehovah done to thee this day;

19 yea, Jehovah giveth also Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow thou and thy sons [are] with me; also the camp of Israel doth Jehovah give into the hand of the Philistines.'

20 And Saul hasteth and falleth -- the fulness of his stature -- to the earth, and feareth greatly because of the words of Samuel; also power was not in him, for he had not eaten bread all the day, and all the night.

21 And the woman cometh in unto Saul, and seeth that he hath been greatly troubled, and saith unto him, `Lo, thy maid-servant hath hearkened to thy voice, and I put my soul in my hand, and I obey thy words which thou hast spoken unto me;

22 and now, hearken, I pray thee, also thou, to the voice of thy maid-servant, and I set before thee a morsel of bread, and eat, and there is in thee power when thou goest in the way.'

23 And he refuseth, and saith, `I do not eat;' and his servants urge on him, and also the woman, and he hearkeneth to their voice, and riseth from the earth, and sitteth on the bed.

24 And the woman hath a calf of the stall in the house, and she hasteth and slaughtereth it, and taketh flour, and kneadeth, and baketh it unleavened things,

25 and bringeth nigh before Saul, and before his servants, and they eat, and rise, and go on, during that night.

[_LittleNipper]

In which case, I don't understand your point.
Is there anything about the Bible which, uniquely, suggests it has divine providence?

Bazooka, you must be fairly convinced that I am out to show you are wrong for you to miss my answer. But it is simple enough to repeat.

No.

The Bible is the record of human thoughts and human experience. It is words and concepts formed by human minds to express their understanding. It is written by human hands and transmitted by human means.

I am a bit tempted to ask what in the world you are looking for, Divine Providence?

I feel inclined to add a bit but must start by promising that in mentioning these things I am not attempting to push you to believe something you do not. The Christian faith is not based upon the Bible. The Bible is not its source or foundation. The foundation is the life words death and resurrection of Jesus. Upon that foundation is built the witness of the people he chose as apostles . That witness grows into the faith of the communities founded in the first century which continue to this day. The foundation is that living body. The Bible is a record of those experiences and is an assistant to them. It has been the experience of the church that the Holy Spirit uses the scripture to grow faith. Outside of these , community of faith and Holy Spirit the Bible is a human book like millions of other human books.

the Bible defines faith as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1). In biblical terms, faith is a channel of living trust—an assurance—that stretches from man to God. It is the object of faith that renders faith faithful.

Faith is the assurance that God’s promises will not fail, even if we do not experience their fulfillment in our lifetime. Hebrews 11 underscores the fact that we trust God to fulfill his promises for the future (the unseen) based on what he has already fulfilled in the past. Our faith is not blind, but based squarely on God’s proven faithfulness.

The faith that serves to protect us in spiritual warfare is not to be confused with mere knowledge. Millions worldwide believe in the trustworthiness of Billy Graham. They have heard him proclaim the good news on TV and yet do not believe that his message corresponds to reality. They have the knowledge that it takes to be saved but do not have saving faith. Others hear the message, agree that it corresponds to reality, but due to the hardness of their hearts do not bow. Rather, like the demons, they continue to live in fearful anticipation of the judgment to come (James 2:19). Some, however, have what Scripture describes as genuine justifying faith—a faith that not only knows about the gospel and agrees that its content corresponds to reality, but a faith by which they are transformed. This is what the Bible expresses.

[_Bazooka]

In which case, I don't understand your point.
Is there anything about the Bible which, uniquely, suggests it has divine providence?

the Bible defines faith as “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1). In biblical terms, faith is a channel of living trust—an assurance—that stretches from man to God. It is the object of faith that renders faith faithful.

Faith is the assurance that God’s promises will not fail, even if we do not experience their fulfillment in our lifetime. Hebrews 11 underscores the fact that we trust God to fulfill his promises for the future (the unseen) based on what he has already fulfilled in the past. Our faith is not blind, but based squarely on God’s proven faithfulness.

The faith that serves to protect us in spiritual warfare is not to be confused with mere knowledge. Millions worldwide believe in the trustworthiness of Billy Graham. They have heard him proclaim the good news on TV and yet do not believe that his message corresponds to reality. They have the knowledge that it takes to be saved but do not have saving faith. Others hear the message, agree that it corresponds to reality, but due to the hardness of their hearts do not bow. Rather, like the demons, they continue to live in fearful anticipation of the judgment to come (James 2:19). Some, however, have what Scripture describes as genuine justifying faith—a faith that not only knows about the gospel and agrees that its content corresponds to reality, but a faith by which they are transformed. This is what the Bible expresses.

You're saying that the Bible talking about Faith is a unique sign of it's divine providence?