Bible verse by verse

[_huckelberry]

an invention by religious charlatans hoping to somehow profit by persuading the gullible that without said atonement and the mediation of said charlatans and their prescribed religious rituals associated with it, they would be doomed to intolerable punishment in the hereafter.

Though I believe the atonement is to be shared I do not believe rituals, especially purchased ones are required to avoid some intolerable punishment in the hereafter.

Some people have manipulated people with that idea. I think it is best to reject such manipulations.

[_huckelberry]

Gunnar.
Thinking about inherited faults, Gods incompetence is not my usual thought or concern. Usually I think inherited faults mean that we share with others in the growth process of overcoming faults. My actions, my steps, are connected to my parents and to others for both good and ill. That overcoming, a creative process itself, is not just for me alone but the whole human family. With the difficulties in living in this world I understanding wondering sometimes about Gods competence. With that question I find I doubt that I am able to judge Gods competence. If in fact our creator lacks competence then I think we are stuck with and should make the best of the creation he was able to do. Oddly enough that is also what I think we should do if he is competent and fully able to complete the work in progress creation in which we now live.

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

How could a perfected omniscient, omnipotent God create that which grew into opposition without intent that there would be opposition in the first place?

How could reward and punishment come into play when God not only knew the cards in play but created the deck and knew the order of the cards knowing which would be handed to each and the actions of every player before the game even began?

[_Gunnar]

How could a perfected omniscient, omnipotent God create that which grew into opposition without intent that there would be opposition in the first place?

How could reward and punishment come into play when God not only knew the cards in play but created the deck and knew the order of the cards knowing which would be handed to each and the actions of every player before the game even began?

Good questions!

[_Gunnar]

Gunnar.
Thinking about inherited faults, Gods incompetence is not my usual thought or concern. Usually I think inherited faults mean that we share with others in the growth process of overcoming faults. My actions, my steps, are connected to my parents and to others for both good and ill. That overcoming, a creative process itself, is not just for me alone but the whole human family. With the difficulties in living in this world I understanding wondering sometimes about Gods competence. With that question I find I doubt that I am able to judge Gods competence. If in fact our creator lacks competence then I think we are stuck with and should make the best of the creation he was able to do. Oddly enough that is also what I think we should do if he is competent and fully able to complete the work in progress creation in which we now live.

Fine, but how does any of that justify, let alone require, that a perfect and totally innocent being be cruelly tortured to death to atone for the sins and imperfections of others--unless the inventors of that dogma have a vested interest in convincing the gullible that they can't avoid the wrath of God on their own, without subscribing to that dogma and doing whatever those would-be religious leaders claim is necessary to gain the full benefit of the atonement?

You know full well that religion is rife with charlatans willing to do or claim anything they can get away with "in the name of God" to fleece the gullible and fearful among us.

I'm not saying that all or even a majority of priests and pastors are necessarily out to deceive and fleece their flocks. Some of them are just as much dupes of religious charlatanry as their congregations that they genuinely care for. To the extent that they manage to help and comfort their congregations and change their lives for the better, they can accomplish some real good, despite the inherent silliness of the atonement doctrine.

[Guest]

Psalm 51:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Are you saying or implying that the sex act, without which the human race would rapidly become extinct, is always inherently sinful, and merely conceiving and bearing children is consequently incontrovertible proof of sin?

What is even more uncharitable and unjust is the idea that babies are automatically sinners merely by dint of being born. There is no way that I will ever believe in, much less worship a god so wickedly uncharitable as that! This horrid dogma has no other rationale than the greed and lust for unrighteous dominion possessed by the charlatans who invented it trying to take advantage of the insecurities and fears of their most gullible fellow humans.

I can think of nothing more wicked and irrational than the idea that all men are automatically deserving of condemnation and punishment because of something one of their ancestors did, and that the only way mankind can avoid that punishment is by some totally innocent being horribly tortured to death to atone for the real or imagined sins of everyone else.

Sex for any reason other than with one's wife and with a full acceptance that one may be procreating a child by the act (with God's blessing) is inherently evil. The very proof of this is divorce, abortion, and now the promotion of "gay" marriage. None is acceptable either logically or morally. They are a perversion of God's original intent.

[_LittleNipper]

How could a perfected omniscient, omnipotent God create that which grew into opposition without intent that there would be opposition in the first place?

How could reward and punishment come into play when God not only knew the cards in play but created the deck and knew the order of the cards knowing which would be handed to each and the actions of every player before the game even began?

God foreknew that only by allowing sin to enter the world would a select people be born whom He would save. Without sin I know I would never have been born. Whosoever will maybe saved, but only those who seek after salvation from God will be. The Lord Jesus Christ is that Good News.

[_ludwigm]

Last edited by LittleNipper on 2014.05.04 12:55:43, edited 3 times in total.
Don't You find it proper at first?
behold, behold the scriptures...

Psalm 51:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Are you saying or implying that the sex act, without which the human race would rapidly become extinct, is always inherently sinful, and merely conceiving and bearing children is consequently incontrovertible proof of sin?

What is even more uncharitable and unjust is the idea that babies are automatically sinners merely by dint of being born. There is no way that I will ever believe in, much less worship a god so wickedly uncharitable as that! This horrid dogma has no other rationale than the greed and lust for unrighteous dominion possessed by the charlatans who invented it trying to take advantage of the insecurities and fears of their most gullible fellow humans.

I can think of nothing more wicked and irrational than the idea that all men are automatically deserving of condemnation and punishment because of something one of their ancestors did, and that the only way mankind can avoid that punishment is by some totally innocent being horribly tortured to death to atone for the real or imagined sins of everyone else.

Sex for any reason other than with one's wife and with a full acceptance that one may be procreating a child by the act (with God's blessing) is inherently evil. The very proof of this is divorce, abortion, and now the promotion of "gay" marriage. None is acceptable either logically or morally. They are a perversion of God's original intent.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Sex for any reason other than with one's wife and with a full acceptance that one may be procreating a child by the act (with God's blessing) is inherently evil. The very proof of this is divorce, abortion, and now the promotion of "gay" marriage. None is acceptable either logically or morally. They are a perversion of God's original intent.

So the use of birth control is sinful? Even when it's used within a monogamous heterosexual marriage?

And what about adolescent masturbation? That would also be a sin, right?

[_Gunnar]

Sex for any reason other than with one's wife and with a full acceptance that one may be procreating a child by the act (with God's blessing) is inherently evil. The very proof of this is divorce, abortion, and now the promotion of "gay" marriage. None is acceptable either logically or morally. They are a perversion of God's original intent.

Religions, especially the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, rely upon and thrive on guilt. By promoting the myth that there is something inherently evil about the natural sexual desires that no healthy human being can possibly avoid having, religious charlatans create an inexhaustible reservoir of guilt by which they can manipulate their gullible followers to their own selfish advantage.