Bible verse by verse

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I am wondering what you may be thinking of in the phrase Christian concept of sin.

For the sake of clarity, I'm willing to stipulate I had the Wikipedia definition of Christian sin in mind when I made that post.

[_huckelberry]

I am wondering what you may be thinking of in the phrase Christian concept of sin.

For the sake of clarity, I'm willing to stipulate I had the Wikipedia definition of Christian sin in mind when I made that post.

Despite suspecting tongue in cheek I checked Wikipedia. I found this or that, or could be the other. Various versions attached to the tribe of mustard eaters or to the tribe of abstainers.

Using any of those theories it is going to be hard to calibrate same sex marriage.

I think it is a good thing to respect other peoples covenants.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Using any of those theories it is going to be hard to calibrate same sex marriage.

Like I said to Nipper, that's only a problem you buy into the Christian concept of sin, whatever that may be.

I think it is a good thing to respect other peoples covenants.

I'm not suggesting Nipper violate his covenants by entering into a same-sex civil union. What I am suggesting is that he worry less about other peoples' sins and concentrate more on his own.

[_huckelberry]

Using any of those theories it is going to be hard to calibrate same sex marriage.

Like I told Nipper, that's only a problem you buy into the Christian concept of sin, whatever that may be.

I think it is a good thing to respect other peoples covenants.

I'm not suggesting Nipper violate his covenants by entering into a same-sex civil union. What I am suggesting is that he worry less about other peoples' sins and concentrate more on his own.

For better or worse we are much on the same page here Apologist. The covenant to be respected I had in mind was the one made by two people in marriage, same sex or different sexes.

About Christian concept of sin I think any society will make decisions about how it will accept, not accept or integrate homosexual couples into a community. It could play out differently in different places and may not be easily decided for either Christian or other belief centered groups.

[_LittleNipper]

Christians still sin. But their heart is not in it.

This only applies if one believes in the Christian concept of sin, otherwise it's irrelevant. It's therefore a very poor reason to prevent same-sex couples from being able to solemnize their relationships via civil unions.

The saved seek to be of good report for unbelievers and do what the Heavenly Father would want them to do out of love and respect for all Christ has done for them. They are forgiven, and seen by God as perfect through Christ Jesus.

Okay, so if a same-sex couple accepts Christ their sins are wiped away. Problem solved. In any case, you should probably concentrate on your own sins instead of worrying about everybody else's.

A saved individual who smokes may likely die from cancer; however, his soul is saved. But that smoker will likely try and try again and again to quit. Not to save himself, but to be a pleasure to God and be a good witness to the unsaved. Being "good" saves no one, but the saved individual becomes driven to be more and more like Christ.

It sounds like you're suggesting same-sex civil unions should be permitted for the same reason why smoking is permitted. While I agree with you that they should be permitted, I reject your line of reasoning.

He is a new creature under construction. One cannot stop sinning to be saved. One is saved and then becomes motivated to change.

Again, this only applies if one believes in the Christian concept of sin, otherwise it's irrelevant. It's therefore a poor reason to ban same-sex civil unions.

If you change the term "Christian concept of sin" into "the Biblical concept of sin", I totally agree.

[Guest]

Little Nipper, if a same sex couple is happy and productive while in a committed, monogamous relationship, whom are they hurting? How does that in any way harm, endanger or even inconvenience anyone else? How can it be reasonable to insist that they are committing sin when no one else is being hurt by their relationship?

I would question your use of the word "productive." Same sex unions cannot "produce" offspring. And the seems to be the primary reason for marriage to produce an heir. There is no king or queen that has ever existed who produced a legitimate heir through same sex "marriage."

[_LittleNipper]

2 Samuel 17:1-29 Ahithophel urged Absalom to let him choose 12,000 men to start out after David that night --- catching Gavid while weary and discouraged. David and his troops will panic and run away. Then Ahithophel will kill only the king, and will bring all the people back to Absalom as a bride returns to her husband. Then Absalom will be at peace with all the people and the elders.


Then Absalom said, “Bring in Hushai the Arkite. Let’s see what he thinks about this.” When Hushai arrived, Absalom told him what Ahithophel had said. Then he asked, “What is your opinion? Should we follow Ahithophel’s advice? If not, what do you suggest?” Hushai replied to Absalom that this time Ahithophel has made a mistake. You know your father and his men; they are mighty warriors. Right now they are as enraged like a mother bear who has been robbed of her cubs. David is an experienced man of war. He won’t be spending the night among the troops. He has probably already hiding in some pit or cave. And when he comes out and attacks there will be panic among Absalom's troops, and the word will spread that Absalom’s men are being slaughtered. The bravest soldiers, though they have the heart of a lion, will be paralyzed with fear. For all Israel knows what a mighty warrior David is and how courageous his men are.

Hushai recommends that Absalom mobilize the entire army of Israel, bringing them from as far away as Dan in the north and Beersheba in the south. That way Absalom will have a very large army. And Absalom should personally lead the troops. Then neither David nor any of his men would be left alive. And if David were to escape into some town, Absalom will have all Israel to command. Absalom and all the men of Israel said, “Hushai’s advice is better than Ahithophel’s.” God undermined the counsel of Ahithophel, which really was the better plan, so God would bring disaster on Absalom!

Hushai told Zadok and Abiathar, the priests, what Ahithophel had said to Absalom and the elders of Israel and what he himself had advised instead. “Quick!” he told them. “Find David and urge him not to stay at the shallows of the Jordan River tonight. He must go across at once into the wilderness beyond. Otherwise he will die and his entire army with him.”

Jonathan and Ahimaaz had been staying at En-rogel so as not to be seen entering and leaving the city. Arrangements had been made for a servant girl to bring them the message they were to take to King David. But a boy spotted them at En-rogel, and he told Absalom about it. So they quickly escaped to Bahurim, where a man hid them down inside a well in his courtyard. The man’s wife put a tarp over the top of the well and scattered grain on it to dry in the sun; so no one suspected they were there.

When Absalom’s men arrived, they asked her, “Have you seen Ahimaaz and Jonathan?” The woman replied, “They were here, but they crossed over the brook.” Absalom’s men looked for them without success and returned to Jerusalem. The two men climbed out of the well and hurried on to King David. They told him to cross over the Jordan that night. And they told him how Ahithophel had advised that he be captured and killed. David and all the people with him went across the Jordan River during the night, and they were all on the other bank before dawn.

Ahithophel realized that his advice had not been followed, he saddled his donkey, went to his hometown, set his affairs in order, and hanged himself. He died there and was buried in the family tomb.

David soon arrived at Mahanaim. Absalom had mobilized the entire army of Israel and was leading his troops across the Jordan River. Absalom appointed Amasa as commander of his army, replacing Joab, who had been commander under David. (Amasa was Joab’s cousin. His father was Jether, an Ishmaelite. His mother, Abigail daughter of Nahash, was the sister of Joab’s mother, Zeruiah. Absalom and the Israelite army set up camp in the land of Gilead.

David arrived at Mahanaim, he was warmly greeted by Shobi son of Nahash, who came from Rabbah of the Ammonites, and by Makir son of Ammiel from Lo-debar, and by Barzillai of Gilead from Rogelim. They brought provisions for David and those who were with him.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, `Let me choose, I pray thee, twelve thousand men, and I arise and pursue after David to-night,

2 and come upon him, and he weary and feeble-handed, and I have caused him to tremble, and all the people have fled who [are] with him, and I have smitten the king by himself,

3 and I bring back all the people unto thee -- as the turning back of the whole [is] the man whom thou art seeking -- all the people are peace.

4 And the thing is right in the eyes of Absalom, and in the eyes of all the elders of Israel.

5 And Absalom saith, `Call, I pray thee, also for Hushai the Archite, and we hear what [is] in his mouth -- even he.'

6 And Hushai cometh in unto Absalom, and Absalom speaketh unto him, saying, `According to this word hath Ahithophel spoken; do we do his word? if not, thou -- speak thou.'

7 And Hushai saith unto Absalom, `Not good [is] the counsel that Ahithophel hath counselled at this time.'

8 And Hushai saith, `Thou hast known thy father and his men, that they [are] heroes, and they are bitter in soul as a bereaved bear in a field, and thy father [is] a man of war, and doth not lodge with the people;

9 lo, now, he is hidden in one of the pits, or in one of the places, and it hath been, at the falling among them at the commencement, that the hearer hath heard, and said, There hath been a slaughter among the people who [are] after Absalom;

10 and he also, the son of valour, whose heart [is] as the heart of the lion, doth utterly melt, for all Israel doth know that thy father is a hero, and sons of valour [are] those with him.

11 `So that I have counselled: Let all Israel be diligently gathered unto thee, from Dan even unto Beer-Sheba, as the sand that [is] by the sea for multitude, and thou thyself art going in the midst;

12 and we have come in unto him in one of the places where he is found, and we [are] upon him as the dew falleth on the ground, and there hath not been left of him and of all the men who [are] with him even one.

13 And if unto a city he is gathered, then they have caused all Israel to bear unto that city ropes, and we have drawn it unto the brook till that there hath not been found there even a stone.'

14 And Absalom saith -- and all the men of Israel -- `Better [is] the counsel of Hushai the Archite than the counsel of Ahithophel;' and Jehovah willed to make void the good counsel of Ahithophel for the sake of Jehovah's bringing unto Absalom the evil.

15 And Hushai saith unto Zadok and unto Abiathar the priests, `Thus and thus hath Ahithophel counselled Absalom and the elders of Israel, and thus and thus I have counselled;

16 and now, send hastily, and declare to David, saying, Lodge not to-night in the plains of the wilderness, and also, certainly pass over, lest there be a swallowing up of the king and of all the people who are with him.'

17 And Jonathan and Ahimaaz are standing at En-Rogel, and the maid-servant hath gone and declared to them -- and they go and have declared [it] to king David -- for they are not able to be seen to go in to the city.

18 And a youth seeth them, and declareth to Absalom; and they go on both of them hastily, and come in unto the house of a man in Bahurim, and he hath a well in his court, and they go down there,

19 and the woman taketh and spreadeth the covering over the face of the well, and spreadeth on it the ground corn, and the thing hath not been known.

20 And the servants of Absalom come in unto the woman to the house, and say, `Where [are] Ahimaaz and Jonathan?' and the woman saith to them, `They passed over the brook of water;' and they seek, and have not found, and turn back to Jerusalem.

21 And it cometh to pass, after their going on, that they come up out of the well, and go and declare to king David, and say unto David, `Rise ye, and pass over hastily the waters, for thus hath Ahithophel counselled against you.'

22 And David riseth, and all the people who [are] with him, and they pass over the Jordan, till the light of the morning, till one hath not been lacking who hath not passed over the Jordan.

23 And Ahithophel hath seen that his counsel was not done, and he saddleth the ass, and riseth and goeth unto his house, unto his city, and giveth charge unto his household, and strangleth himself, and dieth, and he is buried in the burying-place of his father.

24 And David came to Mahanaim, and Absalom passed over the Jordan, he and all the men of Israel with him;

25 and Amasa hath Absalom set instead of Joab over the host, and Amasa [is] a man's son whose name is Ithra the Israelite who hath gone in unto Abigail, daughter of Nahash, sister of Zeruiah, mother of Joab;

26 and Israel encampeth with Absalom [in] the land of Gilead.

27 And it cometh to pass at the coming in of David to Mahanaim, that Shobi, son of Nahash, from Rabbah of the Bene-Ammon, and Machir son of Ammiel, from Lo-Debar, and Barzillai the Gileadite, from Rogelim,

28 couch, and basin, and earthen vessel, and wheat, and barley, and flour, and roasted [corn], and beans, and lentiles, and roasted [pulse],

29 and honey, and butter, and sheep, and cheese of kine, have brought nigh for David, and for the people who [are] with him to eat, for they said, `Thy people [is] hungry, and weary, and thirsty, in the wilderness.'

[_The Erotic Apologist]

If you change the term "Christian concept of sin" into "the Biblical concept of sin", I totally agree.

You're saying you'll approve of same-sex marriage if I stop saying "Christian concept of sin" and instead say "the Biblical concept of sin"?

Uh, okay...

I would question you use of the word "productive." Same sex unions cannot "produce" offspring.

Gay and lesbian people produce offspring all the time.

And the seems to be the primary reason for marriage to produce an heir. There in no king or queen that has ever existed who produced a legitimate heir through same sex "marriage."

I have no idea what you're trying to say, here. Though, it should probably be pointed out that we in the US live in a representative democracy, not a monarchy.

[Guest]

If you change the term "Christian concept of sin" into "the Biblical concept of sin", I totally agree.

You're saying you'll approve of same-sex marriage if I stop saying "Christian concept of sin" and instead say "the Biblical concept of sin"?

Uh, okay...

I would question your use of the word "productive." Same sex unions cannot "produce" offspring.

Gay and lesbian people produce offspring all the time.

And the seems to be the primary reason for marriage to produce an heir. There is no king or queen that has ever existed who produced a legitimate heir through same sex "marriage."

I have no idea what you're trying to say, here. Though, it should probably be pointed out that we in the US live in a representative democracy, not a monarchy.

Humans can never produce babies through mere homosexuality. They MUST ALWAYS enlist someone of the opposite sex. Only sex between a male and female can produce a child --- uniting that couple and making them one flesh. I approve of marriage only as a means to reproduce and raise a child/children/heir. I believe that all heterosexual couples have a God given possibility of producing a child through their marriage act. No homosexual limited to homosexuality can make such a claim.

[_LittleNipper]