Servant says...

[_Runtu]

Aren't Mormons also "Christian"? If a quote-unquote "Mormon" professes faith in Christ, does this not count as much as anyone else?

Not according to some people. My wife, for example, has more faith in Christ than anyone I know, but I've been told on more than one occasion that she's going to hell because she's not a "true" Christian and she follows "the wrong Jesus." Why? Because she's LDS.

And this is supposed to motivate me (and her) to join up with the real Christians. I don't think so.

[_SteelHead]

Servant says:
Not a Christian. Blah blah blah.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Aren't Mormons also "Christian"? If a quote-unquote "Mormon" professes faith in Christ, does this not count as much as anyone else?

What at issue is what is entailed by “faith in Christ” which is what motivated all the ecumenical councils right up until the end of the Classical era. Christianity is all about having orthodoxy (correct beliefs) that are actually fairly stringent. Arians and Monophysites are much much closer to orthodox Christianity than Mormonism but they were essentially excluded for some pretty arcane (but important) concepts about the nature of Christ.

What we call the Nicene creed today is like, the bottom rung standard for identifying orthodoxy, but it proves insufficient most of the time. That was the point I raised to Servant and went flying over her head, the NYT article showed confessed Lutherans and Presbyterians ordaining openly LGBT people. These denominations adhere to the Nicene creed easily, and probably a few confessions from the Reformation to boot, but can churches who ordain LGBT people really be preaching the same gospel as Servant was talking about?

No, say the more conservative critics.

[_Megacles]

What at issue is what is entailed by “faith in Christ” which is what motivated all the ecumenical councils right up until the end of the Classical era. Christianity is all about having orthodoxy (correct beliefs) that are actually fairly stringent. Arians and Monophysites are much much closer to orthodox Christianity than Mormonism but they were essentially excluded for some pretty arcane (but important) concepts about the nature of Christ.

What we call the Nicene creed today is like, the bottom rung standard for identifying orthodoxy, but it proves insufficient most of the time. That was the point I raised to Servant and went flying over her head, the NYT article showed confessed Lutherans and Presbyterians ordaining openly LGBT people. These denominations adhere to the Nicene creed easily, and probably a few confessions from the Reformation to boot, but can churches who ordain LGBT people really be preaching the same gospel as Servant was talking about?

No, say the more conservative critics.

Good points, MrStakhanovite. The issue I take is with those Christians who use any of the creeds to deny others the right to call themselves Christian. The creeds are extrabiblical, after all, and were the results of what might be compared to a political convention today.

As a side note, I am fascinated by this era (the early Middle Ages). I wonder if Servant would exclude Donatism and Pelagianism from Christianity.

[_Servant]

I have to say I'm always fascinated that some anti-Mormons make me feel downright defensive of the LDS church. I'm fine with criticizing the church for what it is, what it teaches, and what it practices, but these fundamentalist attacks leave me quite cold.

Hi John,

I hope you don't judge all Christians, or my faith, by Servant and others like her, there are jerks in every faith.

Mark

Are you gainfully employed, or do you just go around stalking me on various sites? As far as "jerk," yes you are quite right!

[_Res Ipsa]

Good news, Mark. You are off "avoid."

[_Servant]

Why are there 150 sects of Mormonism?

Are there really that many?

All Christians agree on core doctrine, but most have denominational traditions. Here's the difference between Christians and Mormons

Aren't Mormons also "Christian"? If a quote-unquote "Mormon" professes faith in Christ, does this not count as much as anyone else?

I can go to Lutheran, or Presbyterian, or Calvary Chapel, on a Sunday and I will hear the same Gospel I believe. I prefer the Anglican tradition which I was raised in - but I still can go to any faithful Church and feel the Holy Spirit's presence. So, what's the problem?

Having grown up attending baptist churches I call b.s.

No, in order to be considered a Christian one must at the minimum have faith in the Christian God - Who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not three "gods" as Joseph Smith taught, but One God Who is a Tri-personal center of Being. The Mormon god, according to Smith, is some kind of exalted human who grew up on another planet. Jesus is his literal biological offspring - both in the Celestial Kingdom, and by the impregnation of Mary in Nazareth. Joseph Smith said the Trinity was some kind of three-headed monster, which pretty much seals the fact that the Mormon deity is not the same as the God worshiped by Christians.

Why do Mormons want to be considered as Christians anyway? Obviously you have no use for the Christian faith.

So, you grew up in a Baptist Church, and then became a Mormon? And now look at all churches as b.s.?

[_Runtu]

No, in order to be considered a Christian one must at the minimum have faith in the Christian God - Who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not three "gods" as Joseph Smith taught, but One God Who is a Tri-personal center of Being.

There are a couple of problems here:

1. There's absolutely nothing in the Bible about a "tri-personal center of Being," so belief in the God of the Bible cannot be contingent on an extrapolation someone else made centuries after the fact.

2. Do you really think God is so petty that He's set up this life as some sort of true-or-false quiz? "Oh, I'm sorry. The correct answer was 'tri-personal center of Being.' I'm afraid it's hell for you."

This is what I mean when I say that you make Christianity wholly unreasonable, unjust, and unappealing.

The Mormon god, according to Smith, is some kind of exalted human who grew up on another planet. Jesus is his literal biological offspring - both in the Celestial Kingdom, and by the impregnation of Mary in Nazareth. Joseph Smith said the Trinity was some kind of three-headed monster, which pretty much seals the fact that the Mormon deity is not the same as the God worshiped by Christians.

You mean they don't define God the same way you define God. That's true, but your interpretation is on no more solid ground than is theirs. Again, do you really believe that God does not hear the prayers of people who worship Him unless they have the correct understanding about His nature?

Why do Mormons want to be considered as Christians anyway? Obviously you have no use for the Christian faith.

Now you're just being nasty. I can't imagine why no one would want to take spiritual advice from someone who is so hung up on being "right" that she forgot how to be kind. Thankfully, Christianity is better than that, and so are most Christians.

[_Servant]

No, in order to be considered a Christian one must at the minimum have faith in the Christian God - Who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not three "gods" as Joseph Smith taught, but One God Who is a Tri-personal center of Being.

There are a couple of problems here:

1. There's absolutely nothing in the Bible about a "tri-personal center of Being," so belief in the God of the Bible cannot be contingent on an extrapolation someone else made centuries after the fact.

2. Do you really think God is so petty that He's set up this life as some sort of true-or-false quiz? "Oh, I'm sorry. The correct answer was 'tri-personal center of Being.' I'm afraid it's hell for you."

This is what I mean when I say that you make Christianity wholly unreasonable, unjust, and unappealing.

The Mormon god, according to Smith, is some kind of exalted human who grew up on another planet. Jesus is his literal biological offspring - both in the Celestial Kingdom, and by the impregnation of Mary in Nazareth. Joseph Smith said the Trinity was some kind of three-headed monster, which pretty much seals the fact that the Mormon deity is not the same as the God worshiped by Christians.

You mean they don't define God the same way you define God. That's true, but your interpretation is on no more solid ground than is theirs. Again, do you really believe that God does not hear the prayers of people who worship Him unless they have the correct understanding about His nature?

Why do Mormons want to be considered as Christians anyway? Obviously you have no use for the Christian faith.

Now you're just being nasty. I can't imagine why no one would want to take spiritual advice from someone who is so hung up on being "right" that she forgot how to be kind. Thankfully, Christianity is better than that, and so are most Christians.

Look, it was Joseph Smith who claimed that your God said my faith is an abomination. Most Christians totally reject Mormonism as being part of Christianity - and those that don't, either don't have a clue about what it teaches or are misinformed. I have no problems with Mormons having the right to worship whomever or whatever they want. I do have a problem with your "missionaries" marching around and deceiving people into believing that Mormons are the "true" Christians, and God abandoned the Church established by Jesus Christ. In other words, to put this clearly, Joseph Smith threw down the gauntlet, and now Christians are defending the faith once delivered to the saints - and don't we have a right to do so?

[_Servant]

What at issue is what is entailed by “faith in Christ” which is what motivated all the ecumenical councils right up until the end of the Classical era. Christianity is all about having orthodoxy (correct beliefs) that are actually fairly stringent. Arians and Monophysites are much much closer to orthodox Christianity than Mormonism but they were essentially excluded for some pretty arcane (but important) concepts about the nature of Christ.

What we call the Nicene creed today is like, the bottom rung standard for identifying orthodoxy, but it proves insufficient most of the time. That was the point I raised to Servant and went flying over her head, the NYT article showed confessed Lutherans and Presbyterians ordaining openly LGBT people. These denominations adhere to the Nicene creed easily, and probably a few confessions from the Reformation to boot, but can churches who ordain LGBT people really be preaching the same gospel as Servant was talking about?

No, say the more conservative critics.

Good points, MrStakhanovite. The issue I take is with those Christians who use any of the creeds to deny others the right to call themselves Christian. The creeds are extrabiblical, after all, and were the results of what might be compared to a political convention today.

As a side note, I am fascinated by this era (the early Middle Ages). I wonder if Servant would exclude Donatism and Pelagianism from Christianity.

I'm sort of a Galatians 1:8 sort of person!