Hamblin's latest sin: "Predatory Disbelief"

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_wayfarer
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Hamblin's latest sin: "Predatory Disbelief"

Post by _wayfarer »

In order to justify the latest Church Discipline attempt on John Dehlin, William Hamblin creates a new sin: "Predatory Disbelief":

Despite the rhetorical posturing of many critics of the Church, it does not excommunicate people for asking questions, much less for “thinking.” (Note the equally absurd implication that only critics and dissenters can be Mormon “intellectuals.”) Indeed, the Church was founded by a young boy asking questions. Asking questions is a very important path to greater light and knowledge. Nor does the Church excommunicate people for doubt. Part of the inevitable consequence of the human condition is uncertainty and ambiguity. This makes doubt the inevitable companion of faith: “I believe; help thou mine unbelief” (Mark 9:24). Doubt is not the opposite of faith; disbelief is the opposite of faith–or, as the the scriptures generally describe it, “unbelief.” Disbelief is the rejection of faith-claims of the Church: rejection of God; rejection of the divinity and atonement of Christ; rejection of the prophethood of Joseph Smith; rejection of the authenticity of his scripture; rejection of the authority of LDS priesthood. But the Church doesn’t even excommunicate members for disbelief. Many members of the Church disbelieve one or another of the Church’s claims while continuing in Church activity and membership. The problem that leads to possible excommunication is predatory disbelief–the open and public attempt to convince other members of the Church that they, too, should disbelieve its truth claims. If the Church is true, then predatory disbelief aims to destroy the eternal salvation of Church members. Clearly and publicly identifying predatory disbelievers is an obligation the Church has to its members.

I posted the following comment on his site, and to my great shock, it was censured:

As usual, Bill Hamblin sets up a strawman in order to brand John Dehlin as apostate. He asserts that "disbelief" is the opposite of faith, and therefore to actively promote disbelief, he sets up a new sin called "predatory disbelief" and then using this strawman, indicts the accused.

Belief and faith are distinct concepts, therefore "disbelief" cannot be the opposite of faith.

According to Alma, faith requires three things:
1. An explicit understanding that we do not have knowledge of a thing. Although Alma starts by saying it isn't to have perfect knowledge, he notes that if we know something, we don't have 'faith' in it, because we know.
2. Faith is to hope for something, ultimately impelling us to action: a test on faith. The epistle of James goes further to distinguish faith as requiring action.
3. The thing in which we have faith must be 'true'.

Belief is the emotional assertion of certainty: an epistemological claim that something is 'true' to me, and differs in three ways from faith:
1. Belief asserts something without distinction as to whether I know it. IN fact, in LDS terms, we don't say "I believe", but we are taught to say "I KNOW". This explicitly denies the idea that I can hope for something without belief in it - an essential ingredient of faith.
2. Belief is passive. It requires no action, indeed, action may be irrelevant to believe. James said the "devils believe, and tremble."
3. Belief makes no requirement that the thing believed is indeed true.

There is much in the LDS faith that is uplifting and holy, but to believe in things that are false is not one of them. One can argue that "false" is a relative term, but in some cases, it's pretty absolute: the Book of Abraham is simply not a translation of a papyrus that Abraham made with his own hand no matter what we might believe. The facts are absolute in the contrary. And I'm not here to debate this: Bill and his merry band of self-appointed "interpreters of Mormon scripture" have performed stellar mental gymnastics on this topic. They don't change the facts.

Therefore, to believe that the Book of Abraham is a true translation of a papyrus by the hand of abraham is not faith, it is simply to believe a false thing. Faith cannot be in a false thing. I can "believe" that the book of abraham is somehow inspired, but this is a separate claim, and unprovable: therefore as it cannot be known objectively if it is inspired, we can accept the Book of Abraham on faith, not knowing, and acting on its principles. If the principles are true, and we believe they are, then this is "Faith".

Going a step further, the process of determining which assertions in our faith schema are false, and then rebuilding faith based upon truth, is what we might call "Faith reconstruction", which is what John Dehlin, I, and others strongly advocate. Faith reconstruction requires first deconstructing faith, much in the same way Decartes rejected all of his priori knowledge assertions in order to build a new schema.

In the process of faith reconstruction, we often may say things that can be shocking to those who base their faith on the literal schemata of the church. Do not confuse this with any attempt to 'destroy faith'. On the contrary, when we teach falsehoods as literally true, we create the grounds for shattered faith when the new convert or child grows up and finds out the truth.

to teach the truth, that specific claims are either false or epistemologically unjustified, is simply to help us all arrive at true faith, based upon the sure foundation of the Way, the Truth, and the Life. By Hamblin's definition, Jesus was a preditory disbeliever in the false beliefs and practices of the true and authorized church of his day, ever reminding us that the self-appointed "interpreters of jewish scripture" had it all wrong.

you have to hand it to the "interpreters of Mormon scripture": if disagreeing with mopologists isn't a sin, then let's invent one. Maybe Bill censured my comment because of the "merry band" comment...
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_cwald
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Preditory Disbelief"

Post by _cwald »

I am not surprised.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Preditory Disbelief"

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Great post.

It's sad, but after a career allegedly spent studying the Savior's teachings, Bill still has no clue what faith is.

The opposite of faith is certainty. Bill should know this. I'm embarrassed for him.
_Gadianton
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Preditory Disbelief"

Post by _Gadianton »

You are right Wayfarer, that what you and John D are doing isn't so different than patterns of re-education that have gone before. The apologists themselves have publically promoted the apostate Limited Geography Theory, for instance.

I will point out though that Hamblin's criteria for excommunication is entirely his own speculation. Nowhere has church leadership explained that one can disbelieve in Church doctrines but not sway others into disbelief. It's false on its face, because the Church has excommunicated many for apostasy, even when the person isn't convincing anyone. It is also presumptuous to feign knowledge of when folks who consider themselves believers are in apostasy, when these folks are outside of his stewardship.

It's amazing how shrouded in mystery the rules of the Church really are. Not only will the Church refuse to clarify its position, but the one source that gives hints is strictly forbidden knowledge at the threat of lawsuit: the Church Handbook of Instructions.

This could be calculated such that the Church can simply tag anyone at will at anytime for apostasy, and the person has no recourse to rules or precedence to protect herself, or it could be the way an uncoordinated corporate entity masquerading as a religion has evolved. I kind of think it's the latter, even though it has the benefit of the former.
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Preditory Disbelief"

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Perhaps "predatory disbelief" can get you excommunicated but it also seems true then that "predatory belief" can get you tossed out of the Maxwell Institute and censured by your own department head for substandard performance.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_sock puppet
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Preditory Disbelief"

Post by _sock puppet »

Gadianton wrote:It's amazing how shrouded in mystery the rules of the Church really are. Not only will the Church refuse to clarify its position, but the one source that gives hints is strictly forbidden knowledge at the threat of lawsuit: the Church Handbook of Instructions.

This could be calculated such that the Church can simply tag anyone at will at anytime for apostasy, and the person has no recourse to rules or precedence to protect herself, or it could be the way an uncoordinated corporate entity masquerading as a religion has evolved. I kind of think it's the latter, even though it has the benefit of the former.

The most self-indulgent, sweetest tasting power is of the despotic type. Rules simply limit that power. Despots thrive from ambiguous, mysterious rules that can be applied at their whim, in an ad hoc fashion.

I'm sure the FP/12 would not want their power to be limited by clearly defined rules.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Predatory Disbelief"

Post by _Kishkumen »

wayfarer:

My hat's off to you, sir. You laid waste to Bill's delusional, deleterious nonsense. Bill is all about boundary maintenance of his own boundaries. I would rather have a thousand people questioning than one person who is so certain of his own perspective that he would banish anyone who fails to agree with him. That one person is Bill Hamblin. So, too, are many of his Mopologetic associates.

Thank you for providing thoughtful definitions of faith and belief, whereas the apologists provide only demands of obedience predicated on false certainty.

K
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Blixa
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Predatory Disbelief"

Post by _Blixa »

What a freak.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_sock puppet
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Predatory Disbelief"

Post by _sock puppet »

Why are the OMIDs so threatened by John Dehlin? Does he cause them to doubt their faith, rather than doubt their doubts?
_Kishkumen
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Re: Hamblin's latest sin: "Predatory Disbelief"

Post by _Kishkumen »

Blixa wrote:What a freak.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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