Completely false. I may not be the brand of Christian you like, but I absolutely am a Christian.
LittleNipper wrote:You do not accept Christ as the one and only true God.
And that has nothing to do with being a Christian, at least according to what the Bible says.
LittleNipper wrote:Anyone who even imagines that Chemosh is real, cannot have a grasp of an absolute almighty Creator Lord over all.
I never said Chemosh was real. I've already told you this.
LittleNipper wrote:You need to go visit Dallas Theological Seminary.
Ha!
LittleNipper wrote:The fact is Israel was fast becoming a heathen nation --- as is the USA. The handwriting of what happens to such nations is clearly revealed again and again in God 's Holy Word. And this appears as something beyond your concern.
This is absolutely irrelevant. We're talking about what the Bible says, aren't we? You were the one who said that's what you wanted to talk about, and yet you immediately abandoned that campaign.
Philippians 2
New International Version (NIV)
Imitating Christ’s Humility
1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Do Everything Without Grumbling
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, that I also may be cheered when I receive news about you. 20 I have no one else like him, who will show genuine concern for your welfare. 21 For everyone looks out for their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. 23 I hope, therefore, to send him as soon as I see how things go with me. 24 And I am confident in the Lord that I myself will come soon.
25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. 26 For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow. 28 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. 29 So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor people like him, 30 because he almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.
1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
This is a terrible translation. μορφη absolutely does not mean "very nature." It means "form," as in appearance.
LittleNipper wrote:did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Do Everything Without Grumbling
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, that I also may be cheered when I receive news about you. 20 I have no one else like him, who will show genuine concern for your welfare. 21 For everyone looks out for their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. 23 I hope, therefore, to send him as soon as I see how things go with me. 24 And I am confident in the Lord that I myself will come soon.
25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. 26 For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow. 28 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. 29 So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor people like him, 30 because he almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.
I don't really see how any of this is relevant to 2 Kgs 3:27 or my concerns above.
2 Kings 4:1-44 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) The wife of a man from the group of the prophets cried to Elisha, “Your servant my husband is dead, and you know that he revered the Lord. But now his creditor is coming to take my two boys as his slaves.” Elisha replied to her, “How can I help you? Tell me, what do you have in your house?” She said that she had nothing except a small cruet of olive oil. Elisha said to go around and ask all the neighbors for empty jars --- not just a few. Then she and her sons are to go inside, shut the door and pour oil from the cruet into all the jars. As each is filled, put it aside.
She left him and shut the door behind her and her sons. Her son brought the jars to her and she kept pouring. When all the jars were full, she said to her son, “Bring me another one.” But he replied, “There is not a jar left.” Then the oil stopped flowing. She went and told the man of God, and he said, “Go, sell the oil and pay your debts. You and your sons can live on what is left.”
One day Elisha went to Shunem. And a well-to-do woman was there, who urged him to stay for a meal. So whenever he came by, he stopped there to eat. She said to her husband, “I know that this man who often comes our way is a holy man. Let’s have built a small addition on the roof and put in it a bed and a table, a chair and a lamp for him. Then he can stay there whenever he comes to us.”
One day when Elisha came, he went up to his room and lay down there. He said to his servant Gehazi, “Call the Shunammite.” So he called her, and she stood before him. Elisha said to him, “Tell her, ‘You have gone to all this trouble for us. Now what can be done for you? Can we speak on your behalf to the king or the commander of the army?’”
She replied basically that she was content. Elisha asked, “What can be done for her?” . Gehazi said, “She has no son, and her husband is old.” Elisha said, “Call her.” So he called her, and she stood in the doorway. “About this time next year,” Elisha said, “you will hold a son in your arms.” “No, my lord!” she objected. “Please, man of God, don’t mislead your servant!”
But the woman became pregnant, and the next year about that same time she gave birth to a son, just as Elisha had told her. The child grew, and one day he went out to his father, who was with the reapers. He said to his father, “My head! My head!” His father told a servant, “Carry him to his mother.” After the servant had lifted him up and carried him to his mother, the boy sat on her lap until noon, and died. She went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, then shut the door and went out.
She called her husband and said, “Please send me one of the servants and a donkey so I can go to the man of God quickly and return.” “Why go to him today?” he asked. “It’s not the New Moon or the Sabbath.” “That’s all right,” she said.
She saddled the donkey and said to her servant, “Lead on; don’t slow down for me unless I tell you.” So she set out and came to the man of God at Mount Carmel. When he saw her in the distance, the man of God said to his servant Gehazi, “Look! There’s the Shunammite! Run to meet her and ask her, ‘Are you all right? Is your husband all right? Is your child all right?’”
When she reached the man of God at the mountain, she took hold of his feet. Gehazi came over to push her away, but the man of God said, “Leave her alone! She is very upset, but the Lord has hidden it from me and has not told me why.” “Did I ask you for a son, my lord?” she said. “Didn’t I tell you, ‘Don’t raise my hopes’?”
Elisha said to Gehazi, “Tuck your cloak into your belt, take my staff in your hand and run. Don’t greet anyone you meet, and if anyone greets you, do not answer. Lay my staff on the boy’s face.” But the child’s mother said, “As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you.” So he got up and followed her. Gehazi went on ahead and laid the staff on the boy’s face, but there was no reaction. So Gehazi went back to see Elisha and told him, “The boy has not awakened.” Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the Lord. Then he got on the bed and lay on the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out on him, the boy’s body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out on him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes.
Elisha summoned Gehazi and said, “Call the Shunammite.” And he did. When she came, he said, “Take your son.” She came in, fell at his feet and bowed to the ground. Then she took her son and left.
Elisha returned to Gilgal and there was a famine in that region. While the company of the prophets was meeting with him, he said to his servant, “Put on the large pot and cook some stew for these prophets.” One of them went out into the fields to gather herbs and found a wild vine and picked as many of its gourds as his garment could hold. When he returned, he cut them up into the pot of stew, though no one knew what they were. The stew was poured out for the men, but as they began to eat it, they cried out, “Man of God, the pot contain poison!” And they could not eat it.
Elisha said, “Get some flour.” He put it into the pot and said, “Serve it to the people to eat.” And there was nothing harmful in the pot.
A man came from Baal Shalishah, bringing the man of God 20 loaves of barley bread baked from the first ripe grain, along with some heads of new grain. “Give it to the people to eat,” Elisha said. “How can I set this before a 100 men?” his servant asked. Elisha answered, “Give it to the people to eat. For this is what the Lord says: ‘They will eat and have some leftovers.’” And this is exactly what happened.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets hath cried unto Elisha, saying, `Thy servant, my husband, is dead, and thou hast known that thy servant was fearing Jehovah, and the lender hath come to take my two children to him for servants.'
2 And Elisha saith unto her, `What do I do for thee? declare to me, what hast thou in the house?' and she saith, `Thy maid-servant hath nothing in the house except a pot of oil.'
3 And he saith, `Go, ask for thee vessels from without, from all thy neighbours -- empty vessels -- let [them] not be few;
4 and thou hast entered, and shut the door upon thee, and upon thy sons, and hast poured out into all these vessels, and the full ones thou dost remove.'
5 And she goeth from him, and shutteth the door upon her, and upon her sons; they are bringing nigh unto her, and she is pouring out,
6 and it cometh to pass, at the filling of the vessels, that she saith unto her son, `Bring nigh unto me a vessel more,' and he saith unto her, `There is not a vessel more;' and the oil stayeth.
7 And she cometh and declareth to the man of God, and he saith, `Go, sell the oil, and repay thy loan; and thou [and] thy sons do live of the rest.'
8 And the day cometh that Elisha passeth over unto Shunem, and there [is] a great woman, and she layeth hold on him to eat bread, and it cometh to pass, at the time of his passing over, he turneth aside thither to eat bread,
9 and she saith unto her husband, `Lo, I pray thee, I have known that a holy man of God he is, passing over by us continually;
10 let us make, I pray thee, a little upper chamber of the wall, and we set for him there a bed, and a table, and a high seat, and a candlestick; and it hath been, in his coming in unto us, he doth turn aside thither.'
11 And the day cometh, that he cometh in thither, and turneth aside unto the upper chamber, and lieth there,
12 and he saith unto Gehazi his young man, `Call for this Shunammite;' and he calleth for her, and she standeth before him.
13 And he saith to him, `Say, I pray thee, unto her, Lo, thou hast troubled thyself concerning us with all this trouble; what -- to do for thee? is it to speak for thee unto the king, or unto the head of the host?' and she saith, `In the midst of my people I am dwelling.'
14 And he saith, `And what -- to do for her?' and Gehazi saith, `Verily she hath no son, and her husband [is] aged.'
15 And he saith, `Call for her;' and he calleth for her, and she standeth at the opening,
16 and he saith, `At this season, according to the time of life, thou art embracing a son;' and she saith, `Nay, my lord, O man of God, do not lie unto thy maid-servant.'
17 And the woman conceiveth and beareth a son, at this season, according to the time of life, that Elisha spake of unto her.
18 And the lad groweth, and the day cometh that he goeth out unto his father, unto the reapers,
19 and he saith unto his father, `My head, my head;' and he saith unto the young man, `Bear him unto his mother;'
20 and he beareth him, and bringeth him in unto his mother, and he sitteth on her knees till the noon, and dieth.
21 And she goeth up, and layeth him on the bed of the man of God, and shutteth [the door] upon him, and goeth out,
22 and calleth unto her husband, and saith, `Send, I pray thee, to me, one of the young men, and one of the asses, and I run unto the man of God, and return.'
23 And he saith, `Wherefore art thou going unto him to-day? -- neither new moon nor sabbath!' and she saith, `Peace [to thee]!'
24 And she saddleth the ass, and saith unto her young man, `Lead, and go, do not restrain riding for me, except I have said [so] to thee.'
25 And she goeth, and cometh in unto the man of God, unto the hill of Carmel, and it cometh to pass, at the man of God's seeing her from over-against, that he saith unto Gehazi his young man, `Lo, this Shunammite;
26 now, run, I pray thee, to meet her, and say to her, Is there peace to thee? is there peace to thy husband? is there peace to the lad?' and she saith, `Peace.'
27 And she cometh in unto the man of God, unto the hill, and layeth hold on his feet, and Gehazi cometh nigh to thrust her away, and the man of God saith, `Let her alone, for her soul [is] bitter to her, and Jehovah hath hidden [it] from me, and hath not declared [it] to me.'
28 And she saith, `Did I ask a son from my lord? did I not say, Do not deceive me?'
29 And he saith to Gehazi, `Gird up thy loins, and take my staff in thy hand, and go; when thou dost meet a man, thou dost not salute him; and when a man doth salute thee, thou dost not answer him; and thou hast laid my staff on the face of the youth.'
30 And the mother of the youth saith, `Jehovah liveth, and thy soul liveth -- if I leave thee;' and he riseth and goeth after her.
31 And Gehazi hath passed on before them, and layeth the staff on the face of the youth, and there is no voice, and there is no attention, and he turneth back to meet him, and declareth to him, saying, `The youth hath not awaked.'
32 And Elisha cometh in to the house, and lo, the youth is dead, laid on his bed,
33 and he goeth in and shutteth the door upon them both, and prayeth unto Jehovah.
34 And he goeth up, and lieth down on the lad, and putteth his mouth on his mouth, and his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands, and stretcheth himself upon him, and the flesh of the lad becometh warm;
35 and he turneth back and walketh in the house, once hither and once thither, and goeth up and stretcheth himself upon him, and the youth sneezeth till seven times, and the youth openeth his eyes.
36 And he calleth unto Gehazi, and saith, `Call unto this Shunammite;' and he calleth her, and she cometh in unto him, and he saith, `Lift up thy son.'
37 And she goeth in, and falleth at his feet, and boweth herself to the earth, and lifteth up her son, and goeth out.
38 And Elisha hath turned back to Gilgal, and the famine [is] in the land, and the sons of the prophets are sitting before him, and he saith to his young man, `Set on the great pot, and boil pottage for the sons of the prophets.'
39 And one goeth out unto the field to gather herbs, and findeth a vine of the field, and gathereth of it gourds of the field -- the fulness of his garment -- and cometh in and splitteth [them] into the pot of pottage, for they knew [them] not;
40 and they pour out for the men to eat, and it cometh to pass at their eating of the pottage, that they have cried out, and say, `Death [is] in the pot, O man of God!' and they have not been able to eat.
41 And he saith, `Then bring ye meal;' and he casteth into the pot, and saith, `Pour out for the people, and they eat;' and there was no evil thing in the pot.
42 And a man hath come from Baal-Shalishah, and bringeth in to the man of God bread of first-fruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in its husk, and he saith, `Give to the people, and they eat.'
43 And his minister saith, `What -- do I give this before a hundred men?' and he saith, `Give to the people, and they eat, for thus said Jehovah, Eat and leave;'
44 and he giveth before them, and they eat and leave, according to the word of Jehovah.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
maklelan wrote:V. 30 says, "Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me." The sense is clearly that Israel's firstborn are supposed to be offered as a burnt offering. There is nothing in this section of laws that qualifies that commandment in any way whatsoever, although way down the road in Exod 34:20 it commands Israel to redeem all their firstborn sons. In essence, they are owed to God, but they are avoiding sacrificing them by offering a substitute.
For Pete's sake, would you just stop already?! I don't know how many times I've read Exodus and never noticed that verse. Okay so let's see if this is salvageable. My trusty Oxford Bible says:
"You shall give me your first-born sons."
Couldn't this simply mean dedicate them in service to God or to become priests or something? Why would it have to mean burnt offering?
In essence, they are owed to God, but they are avoiding sacrificing them by offering a substitute.
Okay... so even if the verse was referencing a literal burnt offering of Isreal's first-born sons, taken in context with the rest of Exodus, this verse is actually laying out the formula for the redemption of humanity. Blood is required to pay for sins so in Ex. 22:29 God is simply stating what is required for the remission of sins and in 34:20 he's providing a substitution, much like he did with Abraham and will eventually do with Christ. Whew! Just agree, mak.
This is a much later commandment, though, and we have biblical verification that Exod 22:29 was the law for some time. Ezek 20:25-26 has God explain that he intentionally gave Israel bad commandments, forcing them to sacrifice their firstborn children. That's Ezekiel's way of condemning Exod 22:29.
There you go meddling again. Some time? Hmmm. Seems like a subjective opinion. Also, my reading of Deut. 12:31 would seem to work against that interpretation:
"You must not do for the LORD your God what they do, for all that they do for their gods is hateful and abominable to the LORD. As sacrifices for their gods they even burn their sons and their daughters." NEB
Thank you NEB! You salvaged my life from mak's evil clutches! : )
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
I've often wondered if the Bris ceremony (circumcision) became a replacement for the sacrifice of male babies.
I've heard that the Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice and were in some ways related to other groups in the Levant (Canaanites). Maybe that's just Roman propaganda.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Ah, so I'm supposed to ignore centuries of legitimate Greek lexicography because the "Soul Journaler" said so? Are you kidding me?
Ah, so I'm supposed to ignore 2 thousand years of a "legitimate" Papacy because a philandering self appointed "Prophet" said to? I'm supposed to accept a book, no one even heard of until it was "found," "translated," and published by the same person... Are you serious or don't you see the error of your logic?
The truth will set you free Betty!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Roger wrote:For Pete's sake, would you just stop already?!
Roger wrote:I don't know how many times I've read Exodus and never noticed that verse. Okay so let's see if this is salvageable. My trusty Oxford Bible says:
"You shall give me your first-born sons."
Couldn't this simply mean dedicate them in service to God or to become priests or something? Why would it have to mean burnt offering?
V. 30 explicitly says to do the exact same thing with the oxen and the sheep. The "service to God" is a popular rationalization of the story of Jephthah vowing to offer as a burnt offering the first thing to come through out of his house greet him. His daughter comes out first, meaning he's got to sacrifice her. The text says he ends up doing it, but people have invented ways to get around that, and this notion that he gave her over to temple service or something like that is one of the most popular. There's no real basis for it in the text, though. They had words for being dedicated to service to God.
Roger wrote:Okay... so even if the verse was referencing a literal burnt offering of Isreal's first-born sons, taken in context with the rest of Exodus, this verse is actually laying out the formula for the redemption of humanity. Blood is required to pay for sins so in Ex. 22:29 God is simply stating what is required for the remission of sins and in 34:20 he's providing a substitution, much like he did with Abraham and will eventually do with Christ. Whew! Just agree, mak.
I wish I could. The only problem is that this segment of Exodus is from a different author and time period than the segment containing Exod 34:20. Ezekiel 20 shows Ezekiel didn't have the context provided by Exod 34:20, and he has God insist he made them sacrifice their own children for his own purposes.
Roger wrote:There you go meddling again. Some time? Hmmm. Seems like a subjective opinion.
Ezekiel was writing during the exile, and as far as he's concerned, there's no Exod 34:20 to fix the problem of Exos 22:29. For him, that commandment was something YHWH intentionally did to bring Israel's iniquity full circle. Exod 34:20 could have circulated as part of a separate tradition not accepted by Ezekiel, or it may not have been authored by then.
Roger wrote:Also, my reading of Deut. 12:31 would seem to work against that interpretation:
"You must not do for the LORD your God what they do, for all that they do for their gods is hateful and abominable to the LORD. As sacrifices for their gods they even burn their sons and their daughters." NEB
Yeah, and that text was written during the exile as well.
Roger wrote:Thank you NEB! You salvaged my life from mak's evil clutches! : )
LittleNipper wrote:Ah, so I'm supposed to ignore 2 thousand years of a "legitimate" Papacy because a philandering self appointed Prophet" said to? Are you serious or don't you see the error of your logic?
The truth will set you free Betty!
So what you're saying is that you don't care what the Bible actually says, you just care what your tradition says. I believe I called that.
