LittleNipper wrote:You are the product of Mormonism, in that your view of the Bible has been jaded.
Wait, above you said I was the product of "secular humanistic training." Which is it? Obviously the two are diametrically opposed. Make up your mind.
LittleNipper wrote:You view God and religion and life on earth, as in a constant process of evolution.
So do you. The difference is I'm not afraid to admit it.
LittleNipper wrote:You must either demonstrate that the Bible contain errors or reject Mormonism (because it is full of errors). I see you as vainly trying to excuse Mormonism in your own way.
And I see you as making up pathetic reasons why you don't have to listen to the person who obviously know boatloads more than you about the Bible. Guess which person can provide actual evidence for their perspective. I'll give you a hint: it's me.
maklelan wrote:Just because it is recorded in Exodus as a commandment does not mean it was unilaterally enforced or accepted. That some Israelites sacrificed their children is asserted by the biblical text itself, and Ezekiel even insists YHWH forced them to do it.
huckelberry wrote:The line making the command must be a fragment.
Not with the beginning of v. 30, which started with "thus also will you do with your oxen . . ." Unless "thus also" refers to redemption or something else, it means you're also supposed to sacrifice the firstborn of your cattle and flocks, which is exactly what is recorded elsewhere.
huckelberry wrote:It does not function socially all by itself. My divided observations here leave a lot of historical uncertainty and unknowns as far as I can see.
It does function socially. Certainly not with the contemporary religious filter you're overlaying your conceptualization of ancient Israel, but the fact is that it fits perfectly with what we know about early Israel. Again, those books I recommended earlier are excellent academic discussions of the topic.
My contemporary religious filter, what is that suppose to be? I did not say, think, or suggest that human sacrifice would not function socially, it has in many societies.
maklelan wrote:Can you point to any scholars who disagree with my interpretation? Do any of them do so on any grounds other than pure theological sensitivity?
I was referring to the scholars who wrote the commentary in my NEB, Oxford Study Edition. Are they theologically motivated? I have no way of knowing. Are you? I have no way of knowing.
Also a later addition. Compare that verse to Exod 34:20. The text is not chronological.
There's a lot riding on that assertion. Either I accept what you're saying and come to the conclusion that YHWH was no different from bloodthirsty Canaanite deities or come to the conclusion that Exodus should never have been canonized or go with the way the text actually reads.
How do you know the text is not chronological?
All the best.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
huckelberry wrote:My contemporary religious filter, what is that suppose to be? I did not say, think, or suggest that human sacrifice would not function socially, it has in many societies.
The historical uncertainties and unknowns to which you refer seem to me to be reflections of your own understanding and conceptualization of ancient Israel and its history, which appears to be informed at least in part by your theological worldview. Do you think that would be inaccurate?
maklelan wrote:Can you point to any scholars who disagree with my interpretation? Do any of them do so on any grounds other than pure theological sensitivity?
I was referring to the scholars who wrote the commentary in my NEB, Oxford Study Edition. Are they theologically motivated? I have no way of knowing. Are you? I have no way of knowing.
I haven't seen any actual academic publications that have argued against my interpretation that did not come from conservative scholars. I should add that commentaries aren't really academic publications.
maklelan wrote:There's a lot riding on that assertion. Either I accept what you're saying and come to the conclusion that YHWH was no different from bloodthirsty Canaanite deities or come to the conclusion that Exodus should never have been canonized or go with the way the text actually reads.
At least the way this particular text reads. Not the way Exod 22 reads, or Ezek 20. When one reinterprets one text to harmonize with another, they're generally trying to make the text say what they want it to say.
maklelan wrote:How do you know the text is not chronological?
All the best.
Exod 20:19–23:33 is known as the Covenant Code, and is universally considered by critical scholars to have originally been independent of the surrounding chapters of Exodus. It is thought by many to have been the oldest version of the Mosaic law. The code stands alone as a law code, following the pattern of other ancient codes, and it repeats commandments found before and after, with little differences. Those repetitions and small variants are indicative of literary seams, and the surrounding text can also stand alone as an independent code.
maklelan wrote:At least the way this particular text reads. Not the way Exod 22 reads, or Ezek 20. When one reinterprets one text to harmonize with another, they're generally trying to make the text say what they want it to say.
Well in this case, if the original text says what you think it says, that's a real problem. Not just for me but for all Christendom.
Exod 20:19–23:33 is known as the Covenant Code, and is universally considered by critical scholars to have originally been independent of the surrounding chapters of Exodus. It is thought by many to have been the oldest version of the Mosaic law. The code stands alone as a law code, following the pattern of other ancient codes, and it repeats commandments found before and after, with little differences. Those repetitions and small variants are indicative of literary seams, and the surrounding text can also stand alone as an independent code.
Fair enough.
Does/do the oldest extant version(s) of Exodus contain 13:13 as it appears in my NEB?
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
The repetitions are a style of writing for the sake of emphasis. This is how Moses wrote. Critical scholars are just that "critical," but that doesn't make them correct nor unbiased.
2 Kings 11:1-21 Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she proceeded to destroy the whole royal family. Jehosheba, the daughter of King Jehoram and sister of Ahaziah, took Joash son of Ahaziah and stole him away from among the royal princes, who were about to be murdered. She put him and his nurse in a bedroom to hide him from Athaliah; so he was not killed. He remained hidden with his nurse at the Lord's temple for six years while Athaliah ruled the land.
In the seventh year Jehoiada sent for the commanders of units of a hundred, the Carites and the guards and had them brought to him at the temple of the Lord. He made a covenant with them and put them under oath at the temple of the Lord. Then he showed them the king’s son. He commanded them, saying, “This is what you are to do: You who are in the three companies that are going on duty on the Sabbath—a third of you guarding the royal palace, a third at the Sur Gate, and a third at the gate behind the guard, who take turns guarding the temple— and you who are in the other two companies that normally go off Sabbath duty are all to guard the temple for the king. Position yourselves around the king armed. Anyone who approaches your ranks is to be killed. Stay close to the king wherever he goes.”
The commanders of units of a hundred did just as Jehoiada the priest ordered. Each one took his men—those who were going on duty on the Sabbath and those who were going off duty—and came to Jehoiada the priest. Then he gave the commanders the spears and shields that had belonged to King David and that were in the temple of the Lord. The guards, each with weapon in hand, grouped themselves around the king—near the altar and the temple, from the south side to the north side of the temple.
Jehoiada brought out the king’s son and put the crown on him; he presented him with a copy of the covenant and proclaimed him king. They anointed him, and the people clapped their hands and shouted, “Long live the king!” When Athaliah heard the noise made by the guards and the people, she went to the people at the temple of the Lord. She looked and there was the king, standing by the pillar, as the custom was. The officers and the trumpeters were beside the king, and all the people of the land were rejoicing and blowing trumpets. Then Athaliah tore her robes and called out, “Treason! Treason!”
Jehoiada the priest ordered the commanders of units of a hundred, who were in charge of the troops: “Bring her out between the ranks and put to the sword anyone who follows her.” For the priest had said, “She must not be killed in the temple.” So they seized her as she reached the place where the horses enter the palace grounds, and there she was put to death. Jehoiada then made a covenant between the Lord and the king and people that they would be the Lord’s people. He also made a covenant between the king and the people. All the people of the land went to the temple of Baal and tore it down. They smashed the altars and idols to pieces and killed Mattan the priest of Baal in front of the altars. Jehoiada the priest posted guards at the temple of the Lord. He took with him the commanders of hundreds, the Carites, the guards and all the people of the land, and together they brought the king down from the temple of the Lord and went into the palace, entering by way of the guard's gate. The king then took his place on the royal throne. All the people of the land rejoiced, and the city was calm, because Athaliah had been slain with the sword at the palace.
Joash was seven years old when he began to reign.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And Athaliah [is] mother of Ahaziah, and she hath seen that her son [is] dead, and she riseth, and destroyeth all the seed of the kingdom;
2 and Jehosheba daughter of king Joram, sister of Ahaziah, taketh Joash son of Ahaziah, and stealeth him out of the midst of the sons of the king who are put to death, him and his nurse, in the inner part of the bed-chambers, and they hide him from the presence of Athaliah, and he hath not been put to death,
3 and he is with her, in the house of Jehovah, hiding himself, six years, and Athaliah is reigning over the land.
4 And in the seventh year hath Jehoiada sent and taketh the heads of the hundreds, of the executioners and of the runners, and bringeth them in unto him, to the house of Jehovah, and maketh with them a covenant, and causeth them to swear in the house of Jehovah, and sheweth them the son of the king,
5 and commandeth them, saying, `This [is] the thing that ye do; The third of you [are] going in on the sabbath, and keepers of the charge of the house of the king,
6 and the third [is] at the gate of Sur, and the third at the gate behind the runners, and ye have kept the charge of the house pulled down;
7 and two parts of you, all going out on the sabbath -- they have kept the charge of the house of Jehovah about the king,
8 and ye have compassed the king round about, each with his weapons in his hand, and he who is coming unto the ranges is put to death; and be ye with the king in his going out and in his coming in.'
9 And the heads of the hundreds do according to all that Jehoiada the priest commanded, and take each his men going in on the sabbath, with those going out on the sabbath, and come in unto Jehoiada the priest,
10 and the priest giveth to the heads of the hundreds the spears and the shields that king David had, that [are] in the house of Jehovah.
11 And the runners stand, each with his weapons in his hand, from the right shoulder of the house unto the left shoulder of the house, by the altar and by the house, by the king round about;
12 and he bringeth out the son of the king, and putteth on him the crown, and the testimony, and they make him king, and anoint him, and smite the hand, and say, `Let the king live.'
13 And Athaliah heareth the voice of the runners [and] of the people, and she cometh in unto the people, to the house of Jehovah,
14 and looketh, and lo, the king is standing by the pillar, according to the ordinance, and the heads, and the trumpets, [are] by the king, and all the people of the land are rejoicing, and blowing with trumpets, and Athaliah rendeth her garments, and calleth, `Conspiracy! conspiracy!'
15 And Jehoiada the priest commandeth the heads of the hundreds, inspectors of the force, and saith unto them, `Bring her out unto the outside of the ranges, and him who is going after her, put to death by the sword:' for the priest had said, `Let her not be put to death in the house of Jehovah.'
16 And they make for her sides, and she entereth the way of the entering in of the horses to the house of the king, and is put to death there.
17 And Jehoiada maketh the covenant between Jehovah and the king and the people, to be for a people to Jehovah, and between the king and the people.
18 And all the people of the land go in to the house of Baal, and break it down, its altars and its images they have thoroughly broken, and Mattan priest of Baal they have slain before the altars; and the priest setteth inspectors over the house of Jehovah,
19 and taketh the heads of the hundreds, and the executioners, and the runners, and all the people of the land, and they bring down the king from the house of Jehovah, and come by the way of the gate of the runners, to the house of the king, and he sitteth on the throne of the kings.
20 And all the people of the land rejoice, and the city [is] quiet, and Athaliah they have put to death by the sword in the house of the king;
21 a son of seven years is Jehoash in his reigning.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well in this case, if the original text says what you think it says, that's a real problem. Not just for me but for all Christendom.
I think it presents a problem for inerrancy, but not for Christianity as a whole. I don't think it undermines the Christian faith to acknowledge that many of the texts in the Bible are products exclusively of human effort.
Roger wrote:Fair enough.
Does/do the oldest extant version(s) of Exodus contain 13:13 as it appears in my NEB?
That verse isn't preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but the Septuagint version does agree. The addition would have taken place much, much earlier than any extant variants, though.