Roger wrote:Exhausting. Good thing I'm back home to recover. : )
Well, it's good to have you back. The thread hasn't been the same without you.
Going back in time...
I think I do see your point, and I understand why you'd want to adopt that particular reading. In fact, there was a time when I may have taken that same approach.
Fair enough. Why don't you take it now?
I came to realize that my approach to these writings was untenable. I was expecting ancient, non-western writers to communicate in a modern, western fashion. I began to appreciate the significant influence that culture had on the assumptions and worldviews of the biblical authors. And these culture were sometimes markedly different from our own: not only does Abraham express no particular surprise at being commanded to kill Isaac, we are told he even gets up early to do the deed! Realizing that biblical authors were very much the products of their times helps their writings make a lot more sense to me.
What is it about Ez. 20 that makes you think it is definitely referring to Ex 22?
Again, not necessarily referring to Exodus 22 but to a tradition preserved in Exodus 22. That may seem like nitpicking, but I think it's important to get away from the idea that Ezekiel had a copy of Exodus sitting around.
The basic argument for the relationship between Ezekiel and Exodus 22 is that Ezekiel is referring to something contained in the Law, and if it's not the tradition preserved in Exodus 22 then it's part of the Law that is lost to us.
Right, but I would point out that in other places Ezekiel explicitly and repeatedly references idols, but not in the place where he describes YHWH's bad statutes. Moreover, shortly before this passage (verse 18) Ezekiel portrays YHWH as explicitly prohibiting Israel from defiling themselves with idols -- the very thing your proposed reading of verse 26 has YHWH commanding.
Sure. Which is why it is described as a bad command that does not lead to life. Either way, Yahweh is saying he gave a bad commandment which is difficult to fathom. The question is whether the bad command was to sacrifice children to him or to sacrifice children to idols. It looks to me like it's bad either way,
Looking at it through our cultural lens, it's pretty horrific either way.
but, the sacrifice to idols interpretation makes sense to me, not only because the context seems to support it, but also because the idea of YHWH commanding child sacrifice to him seems completely out of character with what we see in the rest of the Bible.
Some parts of the Bible, yes, but the biblical authors do not speak with one voice when it comes to God's nature. One author may portray him as a loving and forgiving heavenly father, and another may portray him as commanding genocide. Ordering child sacrifice is somewhat consistent with the views expressed by those authors who see YHWH as something closer to a storm god than to the views of later writers. In this old-type god context, it makes even less sense for YHWH to order sacrifices to competing gods rather than to himself.
Actually, this reading injects nothing into the text. This reading has the advantage of not injecting a "to idols" clause into verse 26, nor does it portray YHWH doing a 180 from what he had said in verse18.
I disagree. Here is the way mak interprets the verse in question:
maklelan wrote:The sentence literally reads, "I defiled them in their gifts and in the causing to pass through of the firstborn in order to desolate/appall them . . ." The verb has reference to turning over an offering or sacrifice to the altar or fire and is the same exact verb used in Exod 13:12 (KJV):
Who is "in their gifts" directed toward? The text is ambiguous. It says neither "to idols" nor "to me." To whom was the "causing to pass through of the firstborn" directed? The text is ambiguous. It says neither "to idols" nor "to me." Your interpretation requires "to me" but it isn't there. It is, at best, implied. I'm saying "to idols" appears to be the better implication given the context.
I would argue that the "to me" wasn't necessary because his original audience knew exactly what he was writing about. Ezekiel is referring to something contained in the Law, and sacrificing to idols is completely out of harmony with the Law.
It is not "no longer extant" -- it is preserved in Exodus 22:29. Exodus preserves more than one iteration of the legal code (which is why there seems to be so much repetition), and the version preserved in 22:29 did not contain the substitution clause.
Well that's the key point you're trying to prove. Obviously the substitution clause is there now, and mak agrees (if I understand correctly) that it is included in the earliest manuscripts we have of Exodus. So the argument that there was a time when 22:29 stood on its own with no 13:13 preceding it seems to be speculation without tangible support.
for what it's worth, multiple-source approaches (e.g. the Documentary Hypothesis) to understanding the Pentateuch have been more-or-less standard for over a century. The notion that 22:29 and 13:13 represent different sources/traditions is (I think) consistent with just about any of these models.
I'm referring to what Ez. 20 actually says in the entire chapter. He does say idols quite a lot.
Yes, it certainly does.
Also: keep in mind that in the cultural setting we are discussing folks believed that these other gods actually existed, and that making sacrifices to them was somehow empowering to these gods.
I think you can make a case that some of the people bought into the notion that other gods had power. I don't think you can make a compelling case that any of the Biblical writers did.
Actually, it is rather beyond question that some biblical writers believed that other gods existed and had power. maklelan has already cited the example from 2 Kings 3:27 (Israel is defeated by the fury of Chemosh), the Divine Council, and also examples indicating that YHWH had no power outside Israel. Then there is Deuteronomy 32:8-9: "When Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For YHWH's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage." YHWH is here portrayed as one of the sons of Elyon. He is given Israel, and other nations are given to other gods.
Well that is an interesting take on it I'd like to explore a bit. I don't conclude that inspiration requires inerrancy in subsequent transmission, but it certainly requires something close to inerrancy in the original communication.
Why?
The Christian faith is based on the canon (Bible). If we reach a point where we are forced to question what should and should not have been included in the canon, it seems to me the whole thing becomes questionable because the canon loses its authority. How is that not a threat to the Christian faith?
Sorry for the broken-record routine, but it seems to me that it's more of a threat to particular views of canon than to a faith in God, per se. If a faith in God is mortally bound to a particular ideology (inerrancy, Mormonism, Pentecostalism) what is truly the object of that faith?
Bret Ripley wrote:Well, it's good to have you back. The thread hasn't been the same without you.
Keep it up and you may wind up the president of my fan club. (Of course you would also be the other members).
I came to realize that my approach to these writings was untenable. I was expecting ancient, non-western writers to communicate in a modern, western fashion. I began to appreciate the significant influence that culture had on the assumptions and worldviews of the biblical authors. And these culture were sometimes markedly different from our own:
And yet I am not prepared to say that all cultures are equal or that there really is no right or wrong so therefore we shouldn't judge ancient writers/cultures.
not only does Abraham express no particular surprise at being commanded to kill Isaac, we are told he even gets up early to do the deed!
Yes, that has always bothered me. The only way I can rationalize it is by thinking of the whole episode as merely an analogy of God's love in giving up his only son in order to save mankind, and, of course, in hindsight we see that God had planned on providing a substitute for Abraham all along. But the notion that Abraham was credited for being willing to kill his son has always bothered me. Let's say he'd gone through with it... are we then to conclude that Abraham was a great guy and we should all follow his example? It boggles the mind.
Realizing that biblical authors were very much the products of their times helps their writings make a lot more sense to me.
Yes, I agree.
Again, not necessarily referring to Exodus 22 but to a tradition preserved in Exodus 22. That may seem like nitpicking, but I think it's important to get away from the idea that Ezekiel had a copy of Exodus sitting around.
The basic argument for the relationship between Ezekiel and Exodus 22 is that Ezekiel is referring to something contained in the Law, and if it's not the tradition preserved in Exodus 22 then it's part of the Law that is lost to us.
Agreed. And I don't think we can know which for sure.
Looking at it through our cultural lens, it's pretty horrific either way.
I can't conceive of it as being acceptable regardless of cultural influence. Some things are just wrong.
Some parts of the Bible, yes, but the biblical authors do not speak with one voice when it comes to God's nature. One author may portray him as a loving and forgiving heavenly father, and another may portray him as commanding genocide.
It could be argued that various writers are merely describing different moods or personality traits of the same God. Although, the genocide thing is another thing that troubles me and does not seem consistent with how we would expect a loving, long-suffering, forgiving God to behave. The command to wipe out entire towns seems excessive and demands a rational explanation. The way I've always heard it justified is that the people in the towns were so wicked they were beyond redemption and God did not want their evil ways to spread to his chosen people. Even if that were the case, it seems the tactic failed - which then raises the question: wouldn't an omniscient God have known in advance that the tactic was going to fail? I don't have an answer.
Ordering child sacrifice is somewhat consistent with the views expressed by those authors who see YHWH as something closer to a storm god than to the views of later writers. In this old-type god context, it makes even less sense for YHWH to order sacrifices to competing gods rather than to himself.
Yes but even if that's the case, Ezekiel doesn't seem to be the kind of writer who sees YHWH as just another storm god.
I would argue that the "to me" wasn't necessary because his original audience knew exactly what he was writing about. Ezekiel is referring to something contained in the Law, and sacrificing to idols is completely out of harmony with the Law.
Again, there may be no resolution to this because the text leaves room for doubt.
for what it's worth, multiple-source approaches (e.g. the Documentary Hypothesis) to understanding the Pentateuch have been more-or-less standard for over a century. The notion that 22:29 and 13:13 represent different sources/traditions is (I think) consistent with just about any of these models.
It may be that you, mak and various scholars are correct about that.
Actually, it is rather beyond question that some biblical writers believed that other gods existed and had power. maklelan has already cited the example from 2 Kings 3:27 (Israel is defeated by the fury of Chemosh),
Without actually looking at that particular passage in depth, isn't it possible to interpret that as YHWH being upset at Isreal and allowing an enemy to triumph rather than the enemy's god gave them the victory? I would think, at the very least, that would be how the biblical writer saw it.
the Divine Council, and also examples indicating that YHWH had no power outside Israel. Then there is Deuteronomy 32:8-9: "When Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For YHWH's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage." YHWH is here portrayed as one of the sons of Elyon. He is given Israel, and other nations are given to other gods.
So then the mono-theism of Isaiah 43 and 44 is a later idea? Moses, for example, would have believed that other gods had power over them while they were wandering in the wilderness?
I don't conclude that inspiration requires inerrancy in subsequent transmission, but it certainly requires something close to inerrancy in the original communication.
Why?
Because God is inerrant.
Sorry for the broken-record routine, but it seems to me that it's more of a threat to particular views of canon than to a faith in God, per se.
Yes. That's why I said it is a threat to the Christian faith rather than theism in general.
If a faith in God is mortally bound to a particular ideology (inerrancy, Mormonism, Pentecostalism) what is truly the object of that faith?
For the Christian the object of faith is Jesus Christ. However, for all modern Christians, the only valid testament we have about Jesus Christ is the Bible. If we come to the point where we conclude that we can't trust one of the books in the Bible, then we have to acknowledge that the canon, as it currently exists, did not come together under the inspiration of God, which then leads to the question of which books, if any, are valid.
All the best.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
Bazooka wrote:So: Option 1 - hide from the question. Option 2 - claim it's no longer relevant today.
Got it.
Or, for the literate Christian - Option 3 - Realize what the atonement means in relation to the Old Testament. For example, Moses was never allowed in the promised land....because his way was not sufficient...was not enough. Perhaps you have a different view of this, but the scriptures are pretty clear about this notion. If you are still unclear on the concept - Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18
Is it your position that Mosaic law is the present day "rule" for Christianity? for Mormons?...if yes, then it would be interesting to understand why you believe that rather inept view of the scriptures. such as the entire Acts 15.
The 613 moral, social, and ceremonial laws from Moses have been specifically addressed by the perfect law of liberty (Jam. 1:25), “the royal law” (Jam. 2:8), the Law of Christ (Gal. 6:2), and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:2-4). and Romans 6-8
Does not the book of Hebrews teach that Mosaic law is only temporary?
are you yet not able to discern between these 2 testaments? or how the Mosaic law and Gospel Law relate to each other?...are you confused about why today's Christian do not marry the widow of their brother?...really?
Option 2
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
no "claim" was made and relevance was not an issue. not sure how to dumb this down further...or perhaps it is just the quibble you enjoy?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
2 Kings 22:1-20 Josiah was 8 when he became king. He ruled 31 years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath. Josiah did what is right in the eyes of the Lord. He behaved as his ancestor King David.
In the 18 year of King Josiah, the king sent Shaphan the writer, the son of Azaliah, son of Meshullam, to the house of the Lord. He said, “Go to Hilkiah the head religious leader, that he may add up the money brought into the Lord’s house which the door-keepers have gathered from the people. Let the money be given to the workmen who are watching over the repairs on the Lord’s house. Have them pay the builders and the men who work with wood and with stone for purchasing wood and cut stone needed for repairs of The Temple. Do not make them tell you how the money was spent that was given to them. For they are honest men.”
Hilkiah the head religious leader said to Shaphan the writer, “I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the Lord.” And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it. Then Shaphan the writer came to the king and told him, “Your servants have collected all the money found in the house. And they have given it to the workmen who are watching over its repair.” Shaphan the writer told the king, “Hilkiah the religious leader has given me a book.” And Shaphan read it in front of the king. When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his clothes. Then he told Hilkiah the religious leader, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Achbor the son of Micaiah, Shaphan the writer, and Asaiah the king’s servant, “Go, ask the Lord for me and all Judah about the words of this book that has been found. For the Lord is very angry with us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book. They have not done all that is written for us to do.”
Hilkiah the religious leader, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to Huldah the woman who spoke for God. She was the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, son of Harhas, and watched over the the vestments of the temple. (She lived in the Second Part of Jerusalem.) They spoke to her. She said to them, “This is what the Lord God of Israel says. Tell the man who sent you to me that the Lord says, ‘See, I will bring trouble upon this place and upon its people. All the words of the book which the king of Judah has read will come true because they have turned away from Me and have burned special perfume to other gods. They have made Me angry with everything they do. So My anger burns against this place, and it will not be stopped.’ But tell the king of Judah who sent you to ask of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord God of Israel says about the words you have heard. “You heard how I spoke against this place and against its people. I said that they should be destroyed and laid waste. They should be hated and destroyed. But when you heard this, you were sorry in your heart. You put away your pride before the Lord. You have torn your clothes and cried before Me, and I have heard you. So I will bring you to your fathers, and you will be gathered to your grave in peace. Your eyes will not see all the trouble which I will bring upon this place.”'" This was told to King Josiah.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 A son of eight years [is] Josiah in his reigning, and thirty and one years he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Jedidah daughter of Adaiah of Boskath,
2 and he doth that which is right in the eyes of Jehovah, and walketh in all the way of David his father, and hath not turned aside -- right or left.
3 And it cometh to pass, in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, the king hath sent Shaphan son of Azaliah, son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of Jehovah, saying,
4 `Go up unto Hilkiah the high priest, and he doth complete the silver that is brought into the house of Jehovah, that the keepers of the threshold have gathered from the people,
5 and they give it into the hand of the doers of the work, the overseers, in the house of Jehovah, and they give it to the doers of the work that [is] in the house of Jehovah, to strengthen the breach of the house,
6 to artificers, and to builders, and [to repairers of] the wall, and to buy wood and hewn stones to strengthen the house;
7 only, the silver that is given into their hand is not reckoned with them, for in faithfulness they are dealing.
8 And Hilkiah the high priest saith unto Shaphan the scribe, `A book of the law I have found in the house of Jehovah;' and Hilkiah giveth the book unto Shaphan, and he readeth it.
9 And Shaphan the scribe cometh in unto the king, and bringeth the king back word, and saith, `Thy servants have poured out the silver that hath been found in the house, and give it into the hand of the doers of the work, the inspectors, in the house of Jehovah.'
10 And Shaphan the scribe declareth to the king, saying, `A book hath Hilkiah the priest given to me;' and Shaphan readeth it before the king.
11 And it cometh to pass, at the king's hearing the words of the book of the law, that he rendeth his garments,
12 and the king commandeth Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam son of Shaphan, and Achbor son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah servant of the king, saying,
13 `Go, seek Jehovah for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found, for great [is] the fury of Jehovah that is kindled against us, because that our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according to all that is written for us.'
14 And Hilkiah the priest goeth, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, unto Huldah the prophetess, wife of Shallum, son of Tikvah, son of Harhas, keeper of the garments, and she is dwelling in Jerusalem in the second, and they speak unto her.
15 And she saith unto them, `Thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, Say to the man who hath sent you unto me:
16 Thus said Jehovah, Lo, I am bringing in evil unto this place and on its inhabitants, all the words of the book that the king of Judah hath read,
17 because that they have forsaken Me, and make perfume to other gods, so as to provoke Me to anger with every work of their hands, and My wrath hath been kindled against this place, and it is not quenched.
18 `And unto the king of Judah, who is sending you to seek Jehovah, thus do ye say unto him, Thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, The words that thou hast heard --
19 because thy heart [is] tender, and thou art humbled because of Jehovah, in thy hearing that which I have spoken against this place, and against its inhabitants, to be for a desolation, and for a reviling, and dost rend thy garments, and weep before Me -- I also have heard -- the affirmation of Jehovah --
20 therefore, lo, I am gathering thee unto thy fathers, and thou hast been gathered unto thy grave in peace, and thine eyes do not look on any of the evil that I am bringing in on this place;' and they bring the king back word.
LittleNipper wrote:The difference between blaspheming Jesus and blaspheming the Spirit is that blasphemy of Jesus is a moments rejection, while blasphemy of the Spirit is a permanent rejection….Once the Spirit’s testimony about God’s work through Jesus is permanently refused, then nothing can be forgiven, since God’s plan has been rejected.” Consider this rationale for why the unpardonable sin is what it is. Christians don’t believe that the Father and Son are to be less revered than the Holy Spirit. What makes sense then of why the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable is that it is the ultimate hardening of oneself against the Holy Spirit whose very work is to convict the world of sin and the truth concerning Jesus (John 16:7–9).
This sounds an awful lot like the Mormon take on the unpardonable sin, Little Nipper.
I might point out that nowhere in your exegesis have you said anything about how this means not believing the Trinity equates to "blaspheming the Holy Ghost," as you originally posited.
And to which I originally raised an objection.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
Bret Ripley wrote:It's actually a bit worse than that (sorry, I just like leading with that line). This issue is also tangentially related to the Protestant Conundrum (TM): in general, Protestantism holds that the Bible is the sole source of authoritative spiritual truth whereas Catholicism embraces both the Bible and church tradition. A sticky point for Protestants is that the Biblical canon itself was set by (drum roll) church tradition.
This is an interesting point. I'm not sure Protestants - at least modern Protestants - fail to recognize the value and to some extent the authority of early church tradition. Protestantism, as I understand it, was created as a response to corruption within the Catholic church at a specific point in history but not a complete rejection of or rebellion against the early ecumenical system. Protestants certainly did not reject the idea that the canon was formed by inspiration. I attend a Lutheran church and there are several carry-overs from Catholicism.
Any claim that the Bible constitutes a closed canon acknowledges extra-Biblical authority.
Interesting way of putting it. Isn't it equally fair to say that any claim that the Bible constitutes a closed canon acknowledges divine inspiration?
As such, Protestants are faced with two choices: attribute authority to something other than the Bible (e.g. church tradition)
e.g. inspiration?
or acknowledge that the canon is not technically closed. Couple this with the general higgledy pigglediness of the human condition and "new scripture" movements such as Mormonism seem almost inevitable.
Could you define "higgledy pigglediness"? (I have a nagging suspicion I may qualify).
: )
All the best.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."
- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
2 Kings 23:1-37 The king gethered all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem. He went up to the temple of the Lord with the people of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the priests and the prophets—all the people from the least to the greatest. He read to them all the words of the Book of the Covenant, which had been found in the Lord's temple. The king stood by the pillar and renewed the covenant in the presence of the Lord—to follow the Lord and keep his commands, statutes and decrees with all his heart and all his soul, thus confirming the words of the covenant written in this book. Then all the people pledged themselves to the covenant.
The king ordered Hilkiah the high priest, the priests next in rank and the doorkeepers to remove from the temple of the Lord all the articles made for pagan worship. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron Valley and took the ashes to Bethel. He did away with the idolatrous priests appointed by the kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those around Jerusalem—those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon, to the constellations and to all the starry hosts. He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the Lord to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people. He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes that were in the temple of the Lord, the quarters where women did weaving for Asherah.
Josiah brought all the priests from the towns of Judah and desecrated the high places, from Geba to Beersheba, where the priests had burned incense. He had torn down the gateway at the entrance of the Gate of Joshua, the city governor, which was at the left of the city gate. Although the priests of the high places did not serve at the altar of the Lord in Jerusalem, they ate unleavened bread with their fellow priests. He desecrated Topheth, in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek. He removed from the entrance to the temple of the Lord the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were in the court near the room of an official named Nathan-Melek. Josiah then burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.
He demolished the altars the kings of Judah had erected on the roof near the upper room of Ahaz, and the altars Manasseh had built in the two courts of the temple of the Lord. He removed them and smashed them to pieces and threw the rubble into the Kidron Valley. The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption—the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molek the detestable god of the people of Ammon. Josiah smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles and covered the sites with human bones.
Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, causing Israel to sin were demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also. Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the Lord proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.
The king asked, concerning a particular tombstone. The locals said that it marked the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and prophesied against the altar of Bethel the very things done to it.
“Leave it alone,” he said. “Don’t let anyone disturb his bones.” So they spared his bones and those of the prophet who had come from Samaria.
Just as he had done at Bethel, Josiah removed all the shrines at the high places that the kings of Israel had built in the towns of Samaria and that had aroused the Lord’s anger. Josiah executed all the priests of those high places on the altars and burned human bones on them. Then he went back to Jerusalem.
The king gave this order to all the people: “Celebrate the Passover to the Lord your God, as it is written in this Book of the Covenant.” Neither in the days of the judges who led Israel nor in the days of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah had any such Passover been observed. But in the 18 year of King Josiah, this Passover was celebrated to the Lord in Jerusalem.
Furthermore, Josiah got rid of the mediums and spiritists, the household gods, the idols and all the other pagan things found in Judah and Jerusalem. This he did to fulfill the requirements of the law written in the book that Hilkiah the priest had discovered in the temple of the Lord. Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the Lord as he did—with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses. Nevertheless, the Lord did not turn away from the heat of his fierce anger, which burned against Judah because of all that Manasseh had done to arouse his anger. So the Lord said, “I will remove Judah also from my presence as I removed Israel, and I will reject Jerusalem, the city I chose, and this temple, about which I said, ‘My Name shall be there.’”
Other events of Josiah’s reign, and all he did, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Judah?
While Josiah was king, Pharaoh Necho king of Egypt went up to the Euphrates River to help the king of Assyria. King Josiah marched out to meet him in battle, but Necho faced him and killed him at Megiddo. Josiah’s servants brought his body in a chariot from Megiddo to Jerusalem and buried him in his own tomb. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz son of Josiah and anointed him and made him king in place of his father.
Jehoahaz was 23 years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem 3 months. His mother’s name was Hamutal daughter of Jeremiah; she was from Libnah. He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, just as his predecessors had done. Pharaoh Necho put him in chains at Riblah in the land of Hamath so that he might not reign in Jerusalem, and he imposed on Judah a levy of a hundred talents of silver and a talent of gold. Pharaoh Necho made Eliakim son of Josiah king in place of his father Josiah and changed Eliakim’s name to Jehoiakim. Jehoahaz was carried him off to Egypt, and there he died. Jehoiakim paid Pharaoh Necho the silver and gold he demanded. In order to do so, he taxed the land and exacted the silver and gold from the people of the land according to their assessments.
Jehoiakim was 25 when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem 11 years. His mother’s name was Zebidah daughter of Pedaiah; she was from Rumah. And he did evil in the eyes of the Lord, just as his ancestors had done.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And the king sendeth, and they gather unto him all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 and the king goeth up to the house of Jehovah, and every man of Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, from small unto great, and he readeth in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that is found in the house of Jehovah.
3 And the king standeth by the pillar, and maketh the covenant before Jehovah, to walk after Jehovah, and to keep His commands, and His testimonies, and His statutes, with all the heart, and with all the soul, to establish the words of this covenant that are written on this book, and all the people stand in the covenant.
4 And the king commandeth Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the threshold, to bring out from the temple of Jehovah all the vessels that are made for Baal, and for the shrine, and for all the host of the heavens, and he burneth them at the outside of Jerusalem, in the fields of Kidron, and hath borne their ashes to Beth-El.
5 And he hath caused to cease the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah have appointed, (and they make perfume in high places, in cities of Judah and suburbs of Jerusalem,) and those making perfume to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of the heavens.
6 And he bringeth out the shrine from the house of Jehovah to the outside of Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burneth it at the brook Kidron, and beateth it small to dust, and casteth its dust on the grave of the sons of the people.
7 And he breaketh down the houses of the whoremongers that [are] in the house of Jehovah, where the women are weaving houses for the shrine.
8 And he bringeth in all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defileth the high places where the priests have made perfume, from Geba unto Beer-Sheba, and hath broken down the high places of the gates that [are] at the opening of the gate of Joshua, head of the city, that [is] on a man's left hand at the gate of the city;
9 only, the priests of the high places come not up unto the altar of Jehovah in Jerusalem, but they have eaten unleavened things in the midst of their brethren.
10 And he hath defiled Topheth, that [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, so that no man doth cause his son and his daughter to pass over through fire to Molech.
11 And he causeth to cease the horses that the kings of Judah have given to the sun from the entering in of the house of Jehovah, by the chamber of Nathan-Melech the eunuch, that [is] in the suburbs, and the chariots of the sun he hath burnt with fire.
12 And the altars that [are] on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, that the kings of Judah made, and the altars that Manasseh made in the two courts of the house of Jehovah, hath the king broken down, and removeth thence, and hath cast their dust unto the brook Kidron.
13 And the high places that [are] on the front of Jerusalem, that [are] on the right of the mount of corruption, that Solomon king of Israel had built to Ashtoreth abomination of the Zidonians, and Chemosh abomination of Moab, and to Milcom abomination of the sons of Ammon, hath the king defiled.
14 And he hath broken in pieces the standing-pillars, and cutteth down the shrines, and filleth their place with bones of men;
15 and also the altar that [is] in Beth-El, the high place that Jeroboam son of Nebat made, by which he made Israel sin, both that altar and the high place he hath broken down, and doth burn the high place -- he hath beat it small to dust, and hath burnt the shrine.
16 And Josiah turneth, and seeth the graves that [are] there in the mount, and sendeth and taketh the bones out of the graves, and burneth [them] on the altar, and defileth it, according to the word of Jehovah that the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these things.
17 And he saith, `What [is] this sign that I see?' and the men of the city say unto him, `The grave of the man of God who hath come from Judah, and proclaimeth these things that thou hast done concerning the altar of Beth-El.'
18 And he saith, `Let him alone, let no man touch his bones;' and they let his bones escape, with the bones of the prophet who came out of Samaria.
19 And also all the houses of the high places that [are] in the cities of Samaria, that the kings of Israel made to provoke to anger, hath Josiah turned aside, and doth to them according to all the deeds that he did in Beth-El.
20 And he slayeth all the priests of the high places who [are] there by the altars, and burneth the bones of man upon them, and turneth back to Jerusalem.
21 And the king commandeth the whole of the people, saying, `Make ye a passover to Jehovah your God, as it is written on this book of the covenant.'
22 Surely there hath not been made like this passover from the days of the judges who judged Israel, even all the days of the kings of Israel, and of the kings of Judah;
23 but in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, hath this passover been made to Jehovah in Jerusalem.
24 And also, those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the teraphim, and the idols, and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah, and in Jerusalem, hath Josiah put away, in order to establish the words of the law that are written on the book that Hilkiah the priest hath found in the house of Jehovah.
25 And like him there hath not been before him a king who turned back unto Jehovah with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses, and after him there hath none risen like him.
26 Only, Jehovah hath not turned back from the fierceness of His great anger with which His anger burned against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh provoked him,
27 and Jehovah saith, `Also Judah I turn aside from my presence, as I turned Israel aside, and I have rejected this city that I have chosen -- Jerusalem, and the house of which I said, My name is there.'
28 And the rest of the matters of Josiah, and all that he did, are they not written on the book of the Chronicles of the kings of Judah?
29 In his days hath Pharaoh-Nechoh king of Egypt come up against the king of Asshur, by the river Phrat, and king Josiah goeth out to meet him, and he putteth him to death in Megiddo, when he seeth him.
30 And his servants cause him to ride dying from Megiddo, and bring him in to Jerusalem, and bury him in his own grave, and the people of the land take Jehoahaz son of Josiah, and anoint him, and cause him to reign instead of his father.
31 A son of twenty and three years [is] Jehoahaz in his reigning, and three months he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Hamutal daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah,
32 and he doth the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, according to all that his fathers did,
33 and Pharaoh-Nechoh bindeth him in Riblah, in the land of Hamath, from reigning in Jerusalem, and he putteth a fine on the land -- a hundred talents of silver, and a talent of gold.
34 And Pharaoh-Nechoh causeth Eliakim son of Josiah to reign instead of Josiah his father, and turneth his name to Jehoiakim, and Jehoahaz he hath taken away, and he cometh in to Egypt, and dieth there.
35 And the silver and the gold hath Jehoiakim given to Pharaoh; only he valued the land to give the silver by the command of Pharaoh; from each, according to his valuation, he exacted the silver and the gold, from the people of the land, to give to Pharaoh-Nechoh.
36 A son of twenty and five years [is] Jehoiakim in his reigning, and eleven years he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Zebudah daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah,
37 and he doth the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, according to all that his fathers did.
Roger wrote:For the Christian the object of faith is Jesus Christ. However, for all modern Christians, the only valid testament we have about Jesus Christ is the Bible. If we come to the point where we conclude that we can't trust one of the books in the Bible, then we have to acknowledge that the canon, as it currently exists, did not come together under the inspiration of God, which then leads to the question of which books, if any, are valid
Exactly! So what?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
2 Kings 24:1-20 In the reign of King Jehoiakim, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon attacked Jerusalem. Jehoiakim surrendered and paid tribute 3 years --- then rebelled. God sent bands of Chaldeans, Syrians, Moabites, and Ammonites against Judah in order to destroy the nation, exactly as God had warned through his prophets that he would. It is clear that these disasters happened to Judah at the direct command of the Lord. He had decided to wipe Judah out of his sight because of the many sins of Manasseh, for he had filled Jerusalem with blood, and the Lord would not excuse it. The rest of the history of Jehoiakim is written in the book of the Chronicles of the kings of Judah Upon his death, his son Jehoiachin became king. (The Egyptian Pharaoh never returned after that, for the king of Babylon occupied the entire area claimed by Egypt—all of Judah from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates River.)
Jehoiachin began his reign at18 years old. Length of reign: 3 months, in Jerusalem Mother’s name: Nehushta (daughter of Elnathan, a citizen of Jerusalem) During his reign the armies of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieged the city of Jerusalem. Nebuchadnezzar himself arrived during the siege, and King Jehoiachin, all of his officials, and the queen mother surrendered to him. The surrender was accepted, and Jehoiachin was imprisoned in Babylon in the 8th year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign.
The Babylonians carried home all the treasures from the Temple and the royal palace; and they cut apart all the gold bowls which King Solomon of Israel had placed in the Temple at the Lord’s directions. King Nebuchadnezzar took 10 thousand captives from Jerusalem, including all the princes and the best of the soldiers, craftsmen, and smiths. So only the poorest and least skilled people were left in the land. Nebuchadnezzar took King Jehoiachin, his wives and officials, and the queen mother, to Babylon. He also took 7 thousand of the best troops and one thousand craftsmen and smiths, all of whom were strong and fit for war. Then the king of Babylon appointed King Jehoiachin’s great-uncle, Mattaniah, to rule ---- changing his name to Zedekiah.
New king of Judah: Zedekiah began his reign at 21, and ruled 11 years, in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Hamutal (daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah). His reign was evil, like that of Jehoiakim. God destroyed the people of Jerusalem and Judah. King Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 In his days hath Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon come up, and Jehoiakim is to him a servant three years; and he turneth and rebelleth against him,
2 and Jehovah sendeth against him the troops of the Chaldeans, and the troops of Aram, and the troops of Moab, and the troops of the sons of Ammon, and He sendeth them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of Jehovah, that He spake by the hand of His servants the prophets;
3 only, by the command of Jehovah it hath been against Judah to turn [them] aside from His presence, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did,
4 and also the innocent blood that he hath shed, and he filleth Jerusalem with innocent blood, and Jehovah was not willing to forgive.
5 And the rest of the matters of Jehoiakim, and all that he did, are they not written on the book of the Chronicles of the kings of Judah?
6 And Jehoiakim lieth with his fathers, and Jehoiachin his son reigneth in his stead.
7 And the king of Egypt hath not added any more to go out from his own land, for the king of Babylon hath taken, from the brook of Egypt unto the river Phrat, all that had been to the king of Egypt.
8 A son of eighteen years [is] Jehoiachin in his reigning, and three months he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Nehushta, daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem,
9 and he doth the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, according to all that his fathers did.
10 At that time come up have servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to Jerusalem, and the city goeth into siege,
11 and Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon cometh against the city, and his servants are laying siege to it,
12 and Jehoiachin king of Judah goeth out unto the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his chiefs, and his eunuchs, and the king of Babylon taketh him in the eighth year of his reign,
13 and bringeth out thence all the treasures of the house of Jehovah, and the treasures of the house of the king, and cutteth in pieces all the vessels of gold that Solomon king of Israel made in the temple of Jehovah, as Jehovah had spoken.
14 And he hath removed all Jerusalem, and all the chiefs, and all the mighty ones of valour -- ten thousand [is] the removal -- and every artificer and smith, none hath been left save the poor of the people of the land.
15 And he removeth Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the mother of the king, and the wives of the king, and his eunuchs, and the mighty ones of the land -- he hath caused a removal to go from Jerusalem to Babylon,
16 and all the men of valour seven thousand, and the artificers and the smiths a thousand, the whole [are] mighty men, warriors; and the king of Babylon bringeth them in a captivity to Babylon.
17 And the king of Babylon causeth Mattaniah his father's brother to reign in his stead, and turneth his name to Zedekiah.
18 A son of twenty and one years [is] Zedekiah in his reigning, and eleven years he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Hamutal daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah,
19 and he doth the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah according to all that Jehoiakim did,
20 for, by the anger of Jehovah it hath been against Jerusalem and against Judah, till he cast them out from His presence, that Zedekiah rebelleth against the king of Babylon.
