Bazooka wrote:I don't have a problem with God intervening at either a micro or a macro level - however you determine what is micro and what is macro.
mentalgymnast wrote:That's your answer? If there is one thing I've noticed, you folks like to dish it out and ask the questions but you're short on answers to questions asked of you. This has been the track record from time immemorial on this board. in my opinion.
Here's the question again:
...take a little bit of time to explicitly lay out the logistics of how and when God ought to intervene at the macro level (assuming that you believe that this is where God ought to be "hanging out"). Ludwigm mentioned manna. What do you think about that? And also describe, knowing the end from the beginning as you apparently do
, WHY would God would step in continuously (He'd have to be stepping in all over the globe saving this child and that one...hand feeding them...and while He's doing that...with His other hand... stop this situation and the other)?
Oh, and how would YOU define macro and micro in regards to God's intervention? I've already expressed some of my ideas.
You seem to be trying to get me to answer the questions asked of you, and for me to define what you mean when you say micro and macro. Sorry, but the onus to answer those points is on you as you are the one claiming micro intervention happens.
You said:
I have a problem with the evidence that if God intervenes at either a macro or a macro level He does so inconsistently and without rhyme nor reason. Inconsistency is not, supposedly, one of Gods traits.
Then you have chosen to question how God works...or doesn't... in the world. That is your prerogative.
It's not only my prerogative, it is what the Mormon definition of God requires from us. We are supposedly here to learn Gods ways, are we not?
Bazooka wrote:Mormonism teaches us that we are here to learn to become Gods. So, on that basis, can you explain what your experience has taught you about Gods ways in a way that can be seen as a consistent pattern across all Gods children, or even just across those special Gods children who got themselves baptised as Mormons? I don't think you can.
You're right. Because I don't require that God act in such a way that I can understand every move He makes. I also don't require that God act in a way that I define as consistent. When you place limits on God according your atrophied understanding you are at a distinct disadvantage as you then judge what He does as either being consistent or inconsistent among various and varied situations, environments, conditions, and people.
And so we reach the crux of the point of the thread.
God is either consistent or He is inconsistent. From all that I learned in Primary, Sunday School, Seminary and Institute, my understanding is that the God defined by Mormonism is consistent in His behaviour, even if we do not understand His reasonings etc He behaves consistently to whatever set of moral criteria He has set Himself. I stand to be corrected on that, but as far as I am currently concerned I should have the expectation that God is someone who behaves consistently.
On that basis, we do not need to know God's reasonings and rationale, His criteria or morals. If God intervenes tangibly in this life we should expect to see that intervention in a consistent fashion. We should be able to determine a pattern. It doesn't matter wether it's micro, macro, or some other segmentation that you care to mention or define. The pattern of tangible intervention should be visible in a consistent manner.
Let's take your example that God intervened tangibly in your life to protect you from danger by answering your prayers with an instant physiological energy boost. On that basis, regardless of God's reasons for doing so, we should be able to see a pattern of God providing that tangible intervention for all people with your level of worthiness in similar circumstances. All worthy Mormons who find themselves tired at the steering wheel in inclement conditions should be able to witness that, in answer to their prayer they were given a physiological energy boost that enabled them to get home. In other words, worthy Mormons who pray for help should not suffer road accidents caused by tiredness. If that isn't the case, then God is being inconsistent.
More than this, if God is the consistent being He is portrayed to be, then you should be able to identify a consistent pattern of Gods tangible interventions in your own life. Even if that pattern is a progressive or regressive one based on your physical and spiritual development. But I don't think you can, again I stand to be corrected. It may be that God has always given you an energy boost when you have been tired at the wheel of your car in inclement conditions, or equivalent situational dangers.
It is beholden on you, not me, to demonstrate the pattern of interventions that God makes in this life.
Because it is you that is claiming they happen. Based on the evidence of my own eyes I don't believe that He does intervene.
Let's see what Elder Oaks has to say about this subject:
Macro-Miracles
Some miracles affect many people. The ultimate such miracle is the Atonement of Jesus Christ—His triumph over physical and spiritual death for all mankind. No miracle is more far-reaching or more magnificent.
Other far-reaching miracles—impossible to explain by rational means—occur as a result of obedience to the commandments of God. Thus, there is something miraculous about the way the members of our Church pay their tithing so faithfully and are blessed for doing so.
To cite another far-reaching miracle, there is no rational way to explain why young men and women give a year and a half to two years of their lives in the middle of their education and marriage eligibility to suffer the hardships incident to an inconvenient and highly disciplined pattern of missionary service to their fellowmen. Other miracles occur in funding missions by missionaries or families too poor to do so but who do so anyway.
Still another miracle is the way missionaries are protected during their labors. Of course we have fatalities among our young missionaries—about three to six per year over the last decade—all of them tragic. But the official death rates for comparable-age young men and women in the United States are eight times higher than the death rates of our missionaries. In other words, our young men and women are eight times safer in the mission field than the general population of their peers at home. In view of the hazards of missionary labor, this mortality record is nothing less than a miracle.
https://www.LDS.org/ensign/2001/06/miracles?lang=engIs Elder Oaks describing a divine intervention that is consistent, or inconsistent?
If God intervenes to ensure the safety of missionaries, why does He not do so consistently with all the missionaries? Why does He seemingly pick and choose?
*Note: Elder Oaks describes answers to prayers as being available on a macro level, you seem to disagree with Elder Oaks.
Here is an example of a supplication to God
by an Apostle in late October 2013 on behalf of a group of strife stricken people:
Elder Andersen expressed his love for the Filipino Latter-day Saints, reminding them that the Lord is mindful of His people in Bohol. “We are here to reassure you and bring you the Lord’s love, to let you know that He knows you and He is watching over you,” Elder Andersen told them.
He also enlisted the words of President Thomas S. Monson, who taught about bravely facing life’s difficulties: “Whenever we are inclined to feel burdened down with the blows of life, let us remember that others have passed the same way, have endured, and then have overcome” (“Look to God and Live,” Apr. 1998 general conference).
The Apostle then blessed the people of Bohol that they might have happiness—along with roofs over their heads, food on their tables, and clothes on their backs.
https://www.LDS.org/church/news/apostle ... e?lang=engElder Nelson was visiting the area and offering these prayers in respond to:
On October 15 a magnitude-7.2 earthquake shook the Philippine island of Bohol—claiming 222 lives and displacing tens of thousands of Filipino families.
What happened 12 days later?
Typhoon Haiyan, known in the Philippines as Typhoon Yolanda, was one of the strongest tropical cyclones ever recorded, which devastated portions of Southeast Asia, particularly the Philippines, on November 8, 2013.[1] It is the deadliest Philippine typhoon on record,[2] killing at least 6,300 people in that country alone.[3] Haiyan is also the strongest storm recorded at landfall, and unofficially the strongest typhoon ever recorded in terms of wind speed.[4] As of January 2014, bodies were still being found.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_HaiyanBut hey, God helps out the drowsy traveller, right?