LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

[_SteelHead]

Mak I know I can find scores of ensign articles, conference talks, and lesson manuals where the flood is taught to be global....

Can you find one official publication where it is not?

[_mentalgymnast]

The official Church position remains...

When I read this article the month it came out I basically said, "What the hay?" Now that I look back on it, however, I'm questioning whether or not this is the "Church's official position". If an article is published in the Ensign by someone who is not a GA are we to assume that it is official church doctrine? I know folks have been down this road before, that is, whether or not what is published in the Ensign is considered to be doctrine. I don't know that there has been any closure on this either through official and/or unofficial sources. I am of the opinion that this article was Donald Parry's position and the position of many other members of the church...but the official church position?

Regards,
MG

[_SteelHead]

Oh hell not this again.....

To quote myself: viewtopic.php?p=786517#p786517

The Book of Moses
The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual, (2000), 3–27
http://LDS.org/manual/the-pearl-of-grea ... ah+baptism

The book of Moses may be divided into two major sections: Moses 1, which relates experiences from Moses’ life that are not found in the book of Genesis, and Moses 2–8, which contains the inspired and restored account of events described in the Bible, including the Creation of the earth; the Fall of Adam and Eve; the story of Cain and Abel; the ministry, teachings, and visions of Enoch; and the story of Noah up to the time the Lord decreed the destruction of all flesh by the Flood. At this point, one must return to Genesis 6:14 for a continuation of the scriptural record.

Genesis 6–10; Moses 8
Old Testament Teacher Resource Manual, (2003), 37–39
http://LDS.org/manual/old-testament-tea ... ah+baptism

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote that “from Adam to Noah, like rolling crashes of thunder, each louder than the one before, evil and carnality and wickedness increased until ‘every man was lifted up in the imagination of the thoughts of his heart, being only evil continually’ [Moses 8:22]” (The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man [1982], 359). At the time of Noah the earth was “filled with violence” and “all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth” (Moses 8:28–29). In an act of mercy for the earth and for future generations, God told Noah: “The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth” (v. 30). Elder John A. Widtsoe, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, taught: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life” (Evidences and Reconciliations, arr. G. Homer Durham, 3 vols. in 1 [1960], 127).
.
.
.
.
The scriptural account of the Flood uses language similar to that used to describe the Creation. Read Genesis 7:10, 14; 8:17, 20–21; 9:1, 3 and ask students how these verses are similar to verses about the Creation. What additional insights do the similarities between these two accounts provide regarding the purpose of the Flood? The Flood, like baptism, represented a new beginning for the earth.

See the previous references to the baptism by immersion. LDS doctrine teaches of the necessity of baptism by immersion, this has been repeatedly applied referencing the baptism of the Earth being; the whole Earth was under water, "baptized" e.g. immersed.

Genesis 6; Moses 8: Noah's Preaching
Old Testament Seminary Student Study Guide, (2002), 18–19
http://LDS.org/manual/old-testament-sem ... ah+baptism

The scriptures speak of two separate times when the Lord would cleanse the earth of wickedness. The first was at the time of Noah (see Genesis 6) and the second will be at the Second Coming. Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:41–43, in the Pearl of Great Price, tells ways those two time periods will be like each other. The biggest difference in the two periods is that the earth was cleansed by water in the days of Noah, and at the Second Coming it will be cleansed by fire. These two events are a type of how we are cleansed by the baptism of water and the baptism of fire—the cleansing of the soul that occurs when we truly receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Genesis 6–9 tells the story of Noah and the Flood. As you read, look for reasons the Lord destroyed the wicked and why destroying them was the best possible thing He could do for the salvation of all His children. Also consider how the days of Noah might be compared to our day—the time before the earth is cleansed by fire.Moses 8 is the Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis 5:23–6:13, so you will want to read Moses 8 before reading Genesis 6:14–22. Notice that Moses 8 is the last chapter of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price. For the rest of the Old Testament, all references to the Joseph Smith Translation will be in your footnotes or at the back of your Bible (beginning on p. 777)
.
.
.
.
.
Moses 8; Genesis 6—Why the Lord Flooded the Earth

President John Taylor helped explain why the Lord decided to destroy all people on earth except the family of Noah. President Taylor suggested that the world was so wicked that children grew up with no choice but to be wicked. At that point where there is no chance to choose righteousness, sending innocent spirits from heaven to earth is no longer just. Consequently, the Lord destroyed all the wicked and began again with the family of Noah to raise up righteous men and women. “By taking away their earthly existence he prevented them from entailing [give as an inheritance] their sins upon their posterity and degenerating them [making them wicked], and also prevented them from committing further acts of wickedness” (in Journal of Discourses, 19:158–59). If God had not flooded the earth, His great plan could not be fulfilled. Read what Nephi said in 2 Nephi 26:24 about why the Lord acts as He does.

Old Testament Student Manual, Genesis--2 Samuel, "Genesis 1-2---The Creation" Points to Ponder (2-19):

"The Flood and subsequent cataclysms drastically changed the topography and geography of the earth. The descendants of Noah evidently named some rivers, and perhaps other landmarks, after places they had known before the Flood. This theory would explain why rivers in Mesopotamia now bear the names of rivers originally on the American continent. It is also possible that some present river systems are remnants of the antediluvian river systems on the one great continent that existed then."

http://LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=%22global+flood%22

"The Flood and the Tower of Babel," January 1998 Ensign

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.

Ok, global flood from official sources. Now please provide local flood from an official LDS source.

Please. Could one of the local flood proponents find 1, just one official source suggestion of a local flood. Just one.

Official source?

Is the POGP?

Moses 8

28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its away upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth.

[_maklelan]

Please. Could one of the local flood proponents find 1, just one official source suggestion of a local flood. Just one.

Official source?

What for?

[_SteelHead]

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.

To show that something other than a global flood has "[been] consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

[_SteelHead]

https://www.LDS.org/topics/noah?lang=eng

What is the symbolism of Noah and the flood?

God uses symbols to teach gospel truths. In the New Testament, Peter explained that the flood was a “like figure” or symbol of baptism (1 Peter 3:20–21). Just as the earth was immersed in water, so we must be baptized by water and by the Spirit before we can enter the celestial kingdom. Also, Noah himself was a symbol of Christ. It was necessary for any living creature who wished to be saved to come “unto Noah into the ark” (Genesis 7:9, 15). Learn more about ordinances that are necessary for your salvation.

[_maklelan]

To show that something other than a global flood has "[been] consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

First, what for? As far as I know, no one has claimed that any other interpretation has been consistently proclaimed in Church publications of any kind. Are you trying to to insist that the global flood is official doctrine? Being consistently proclaimed in official Church publications is not what determines that. That's just a property of doctrine, it does not produce doctrine. Doctrine is constituted by the scripture found in the four standard works and the official declarations and proclamations. Interpretations of those scriptures may vary, of course.

[_sunstoned]

To show that something other than a global flood has "[been] consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

First, what for? As far as I know, no one has claimed that any other interpretation has been consistently proclaimed in Church publications of any kind. Are you trying to to insist that the global flood is official doctrine? Being consistently proclaimed in official Church publications is not what determines that. That's just a property of doctrine, it does not produce doctrine. Doctrine is constituted by the scripture found in the four standard works and the official declarations and proclamations. Interpretations of those scriptures may vary, of course.

The prophets and Q12 have been quoted in the thread over and over that they proclaim the flood happened and was global. It is also in all LDS scriptures. If that is not doctrine, then I don't know what is. You claim these guys are inspired. How about stepping up and owning it.

[Guest]

Here you go Mak, all of the statements from official sources are consistent with this:

Moses 8

28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its away upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth.

The brethren have consistently established that "upon the earth" does indeed mean "all the earth" through consistent publication of the idea of a global flood through official church publications.

[_canpakes]

Doctrine is constituted by the scripture found in the four standard works and the official declarations and proclamations. Interpretations of those scriptures may vary, of course.

Slightly off-topic, but I'm curious how the standard set here then determines the Church's stand on the age of the Earth, as stated within D&C 77.

I'm sure that this one has probably been the subject of another thread, so posting a link to that thread in lieu of discussion here will be OK if that keeps this thread on topic.