LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

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_bcspace
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _bcspace »

That's pure and utter nonsense. I work for the Church's publication department, and there's no such standard attached to Church publications by anyone at all involved with it on any level.


The Church itself published a statement in to that effect in 2007. If you've ever taken a teacher preparation course over the last three or four decades, you know it as well. Your Bishop and Stake president will use the same criteria when there is a dispute or when ensuring talks and lessons are doctrinally sound.
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_moksha
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _moksha »

Craig Paxton wrote:Will someone help me understand how many LDS apologists ignore their own scriptures and disavow LDS doctrine of a universal flood?



Many religious people even outside the LDS faith tradition hold this story to be allegory. Some see it as the biblical inclusion of even older tales of a great flood. Maybe from when Lake Bonneville broke free and flooded Idaho on its mad flow to the Pacific Ocean.

Why should LDS people be forced into an untenable position over some midrashic story? Even Bcspace could tell you this local flood arose from normal climate changes and the spring rains raising the pre-adamite water levels of the fertile crescent of Missouri.
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_bcspace
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _bcspace »

Even Bcspace could tell you this local flood arose from normal climate changes and the spring rains raising the pre-adamite water levels of the fertile crescent of Missouri.


He wouldn't say any such thing. But he might suggest that the Local Flood could have been the flooding of the Black Sea.
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_canpakes
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _canpakes »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Correlated materials are going to have remnants of earlier teachings in them until they are correlated out. If God reveals line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little...the flipside is that there are going to be teachings that are incomplete and/or incorrect in some respects.


I'm not so sure that the 'line upon line' concept really works for tearing down what is considered to be the inerrant word of God and a description of a supposedly witnessed, actual event.

If the flood really was not a global event, how does that fact become sullied by 'untruth upon untruth' until some arbitrary point in time when sensible non-religious analysis forces a 'line upon line' reassessment of it as a non-global event?

It's strange how all of this 'line upon line' stuff seems to end up being forced by sources outside of theological authority.
_maklelan
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _maklelan »

bcspace wrote:The Church itself published a statement in to that effect in 2007.


It did no such thing.
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_SteelHead
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _SteelHead »

I find it odd that Mak, who works for the church has such a differing view of how the brethren establish doctrine than what the church itself teaches.

https://www.LDS.org/manual/teachings-of ... s?lang=eng

Chapter 7: Studying General Conference Addresses
Teachings of the Living Prophets Student Manual, (2010), 84–93

Introduction
President Ezra Taft Benson (1899–1994) taught a principle that is fundamental to this course: “The living prophet has the power of TNT. By that I mean ‘Today’s News Today.’ … Therefore, the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet … contained each month in our Church magazines. Our marching orders for each six months are found in the general conference addresses, which are printed in the Ensign [or Liahona] magazine” (“Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,” in 1980 Devotional Speeches of the Year [1981], 27).

President Spencer W. Kimball (1895–1985) also encouraged Church members to obtain a copy of the conference issue of the Church magazines and to make it a part of their gospel library: “I hope you will get your copy of the [Ensign or Liahona] and underline the pertinent thoughts and keep it with you for continual reference. No text or volume outside the standard works of the Church should have such a prominent place on your personal library shelves—not for their rhetorical excellence or eloquence of delivery, but for the concepts which point the way to eternal life” (In the World but Not of It, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [May 14, 1968], 2–3).
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Identify Doctrines and Principles

As you study the general conference addresses, look for clear statements of gospel doctrines and principles. Identify and mark them in a way that allows you to review and remember them. Reviewing and pondering statements of the doctrines and principles can strengthen your understanding of gospel truths and your commitment to live by them. The following are a few examples of doctrines and principles taught during general conferences:

•Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: “Seldom will you receive a complete response [to a prayer] all at once. It will come a piece at a time, in packets, so that you will grow in capacity. As each piece is followed in faith, you will be led to other portions until you have the whole answer. That pattern requires you to exercise faith in our Father’s capacity to respond. While sometimes it’s very hard, it results in significant personal growth” (in Conference Report, Apr. 2007, 6; or Ensign, May 2007, 9).

•President Henry B. Eyring of the First Presidency: “We know from prophecy that not only will the true and living Church not be taken from the earth again, but it will become better. … The scriptures contain promises that when the Lord comes again to His Church, He will find it spiritually prepared for Him. That should make us both determined and optimistic. We must do better. We can. And we will” (in Conference Report, Apr. 2008, 20; or Ensign, May 2008, 21).


(Note how these doctrines are not really directly found in the standard works)

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Identify Scriptural Interpretations or Clarifications

Prophets play a key role in interpreting and clarifying scripture. The following are some examples:

•Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught how the scriptures show the separate nature of the three members of the Godhead (see Conference Report, Oct. 2007, 40–43; or Ensign, Nov. 2007, 40–42).
•President James E. Faust (1920–2007) of the First Presidency discussed the application of several scriptures as he taught about the principle of forgiving others (see Conference Report, Apr. 2007, 65–68; or Ensign, May 2007, 67–69).


(Note how the brethren are tasked with clarifying scripture eg clarifying through consistent official publication that the flood is global)


Shall we try another?

https://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princ ... s?lang=eng
The Scriptures Are Available to Us Today
•What are some of the blessings that we enjoy today because the scriptures are so accessible?
When the Lord’s servants speak or write under the influence of the Holy Ghost, their words become scripture (see D&C 68:4). From the beginning, the Lord has commanded His prophets to keep a record of His revelations and His dealings with His children. He said: “I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written” (2 Nephi 29:11).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books are called the standard works of the Church. The inspired words of our living prophets are also accepted as scripture.
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Words of Our Living Prophets
In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9).

•Where can we find the words of our living prophets?


https://www.LDS.org/manual/scripture-st ... 8?lang=eng

Lesson 8: Prophets Interpret Scripture
Scripture Study-The Power of the Word Teacher Manual, (2001), 25–26

Teaching Objective
Prophetic commentary on the standard works helps unlock the scriptures by providing a greater and clearer understanding of scripture.

Themes
1. Prophetic commentary on the scriptures is of great value.
2. There are various sources of prophetic commentary.
Teaching Ideas
1. Prophetic commentary on the scriptures is of great value.
•One of the roles of the living prophets is to explain to us the meaning of what prophets of past ages said. Discuss 2 Peter 1:20–21 with students.
•Discuss the following statement from Elder Marion G. Romney, then an Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, in which he emphasized the importance of prophetic interpretation of scripture:
“Another fundamental to bear in mind in our search is that the manifestations of the Father’s will to this generation did not cease with what is written in the Doctrine and Covenants. He has not left us unguided to jangle over the interpretations of those revelations, nor does he leave us ignorant of his will on current issues. He has given us living prophets to interpret those revelations and to declare to us his will on present problems” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1945, 89).

•Discuss the following statements, pointing out that the prophets will always be in harmony with the scriptures:

Elder Marriner W. Merrill, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said: “The Bible is a good thing, the Book of Mormon is a good thing, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants is a good thing. They are the words of the Lord. But I say that the living oracles of the Church are worth more than all of them. If we could have but one of them, give me the living oracles of the Priesthood for my guidance. Of course, it is proper and a good thing to have it all, because the living oracles of the Church work in harmony with what is written, and their counsel will not come in conflict with the words of the Lord in former ages. But the conditions of mankind change. The counsel that was suitable for the Saints forty years ago may not be so suitable today. Hence the importance of having in our midst the living oracles of God to guide us day by day in the performance of our labors” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1897, 6).

Elder Anthony W. Ivins, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, taught: “It is not enough that we become acquainted somewhat with the cardinal principles of the gospel. It is not enough that we understand only the dispensation in which we live. But we must go back to the beginning we must understand the written word of the Lord as we have it in these sacred books, even from the beginning until the day in which we live. We must understand the harmony that exists between all these gospel dispensations, and then we will begin to understand how admirably our work fits in the time, and the place, and the manner in which the Lord has decreed that it should come about. The work that He has decreed, that He has accomplished is all in harmony with the words of the prophets which have been spoken since the beginning” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1908, 15).

2. There are various sources of prophetic commentary.
•Following are several examples that may be used to illustrate prophetic interpretation of scriptures.

Divide the class into groups and give each group source material that contains prophetic commentary about the scriptures. Have students list and then explain to the class the insights they find. Source material could include conference addresses, Church News, and messages of the First Presidency from the Ensign.

Matthew 13:24–30. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “We learn by this parable [of the tares], not only the setting up of the Kingdom in the days of the Savior, which is represented by the good seed, which produced fruit, but also the corruptions of the Church, which are represented by the tares, which were sown by the enemy, which His disciples would fain have plucked up, or cleansed the Church of, if their views had been favored by the Savior. But He, knowing all things, says, Not so. As much as to say, your views are not correct, the Church is in its infancy, and if you take this rash step, you will destroy the wheat, or the Church, with the tares; therefore it is better to let them grow together until the harvest, or the end of the world, which means the destruction of the wicked, which is not yet fulfilled” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 97–98).

Abraham 3:22–23. “God showed unto Abraham ‘the intelligences that were organized before the world was’; and by ‘intelligences’ we are to understand personal ‘spirits’ (Abraham 3:22, 23)” (“The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve,” in James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 5:26; see also James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, 466).



Examples of said clarification/interpretation of scripture:
The end of the earth occurs when this earth is transformed into a celestial kingdom. President Brigham Young said: “When the Savior has completed the work, when the faithful Saints have preached the Gospel to the last of the spirits who have lived here and who are designed to come to this earth; when the thousand years of rest shall come and thousands and thousands of Temples shall be built, and the servants and handmaids of the Lord shall have entered therein and officiated for themselves, and for their dead friends back to the days of Adam; when the last of the spirits in prison who will receive the Gospel has received it; when the Savior comes and receives his ready bride, and all who can be are saved in the various kingdoms of God – celestial, terrestrial and telestial, according to their several capacities and opportunities; when sin and iniquity are driven from the earth, and the spirits that now float in this atmosphere are driven into the place prepared for them; and when the earth is sanctified from the effects of the fall, and baptized, cleansed, and purified by fire, and returns to its paradisiacal state, and has become like a sea of glass, a Urim and Thummim; when all this is done, and the Savior has presented the earth to his Father, and it is placed in the cluster of the celestial kingdoms, and the Son and all his faithful brethren and sisters have received the welcome plaudit – ‘Enter ye into the joy of your Lord,’ and the Savior is crowned, then and not till then, will the Saints receive their everlasting inheritances” (Journal of Discourses, 17:117). – The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual, p. 51

Within this enlarged view of a celestial uniformity, the worldwide flood of Noah’s time, so upsetting to a restricted secular view, fits easily into place. It is the earth’s baptism. Brigham Young pointed out that the earth “abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon” (in Journal of Discourses, 8:83).

The law for a world such as ours closely parallels the law for its inhabitants. Like each of us, the earth existed for a time in the presence of God in a premortal, uncorrupted condition. Like each of us, it entered a fall, mortal condition. Like us, it must be sanctified by being born again, first of the water and then of the Spirit. The earth has been cleansed by water baptism, and its cleansing by fire associated with the last days will allow the Holy Spirit to dwell th uhroughout the whole earth during the Millennium when the earth, not yet glorified, will be sanctified. For the earth, as for us, the work of salvation can only be completed through death, which will alter its mortal structure, followed by a glorious resurrection, which will establish it upon celestial principles that it may abide in that glory forever. – F. Kent Nielsen, “The Gospel and the Scientific View: How Earth Came to Be,” Ensign, September 1980, p. 72


Line upon line, immutable doctrinal truths are abandoned when faced with increasing physical evidence that what was once often and readily taught as doctrine, is bunko.

What use have old prophets and their doctrinal teaching to clarify the scriptures? They serve as speed bumps for busses.

Often I feel like Mak must be defending a different church than the one at LDS.org as described through conference reports, ensign articles, its manuals and other official publications. To say the global flood is not official doctrine is to throw out everything that the church publishes about itself and the role of its modern prophets.
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Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_mentalgymnast
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Bazooka wrote:What do you consider is the standing of the recent anonymous essays?


They're apparently incomplete in scope and depth, but a catalyst for further research/study for those that want to dive in deeper.

The church has never been one for FULL disclosure at any one time...line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. :smile:

I think the essays, however, were more than JUST a little. There's stuff there that will get at least some people off their collective butts digging for even more. And that's good...for those that want to.

Regards,
MG
_Jason Bourne
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Jason Bourne »

maklelan wrote:
But you deleted the very next sentence: "This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." That's where doctrine is constituted. The Ensign contains doctrine just like my refrigerator contains eggs, but the Ensign no more determines or constitutes doctrine than my refrigerator creates eggs. Good grief, this is not difficult.



Oh sure the minimulist dogma. Defense is so easy when you just dismiss all the BS aposltes and prophets say as well as all the Chuch publishes.

Sorry. The Church of Jesus Christ needs to own what its leaders say and what it publishes,

Stop trying to create a church in your own image. You don't run it.
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Jason Bourne »

maklelan wrote:
The Guide to the Scriptures is not official doctrine, and calling it the "official Church position" doesn't really mean much.



So unless it is in the standard works it is all bull crap?
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Jason Bourne »

quote="SteelHead"]
Please. Could one of the local flood proponents find 1, just one official source suggestion of a local flood. Just one.

Official source? [/quote]

maklelan wrote:[What for?



uhhhhhhh let's see...

Because the LDS Church teaches in both its standard works and its publications that the flood was world wide. You can pretend it doesn't if it helps you believe but it does.

Unless tou can show it does not you own it.

That is "what for.'

Got it?
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