LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

[_SteelHead]

This thread is important because it illustrates how every claim, thought, assertion or doctrine within Mormonism is expendable with the one exception being "The Church is True". Every other claim can be or will be abandoned, nuanced, reinterpreted or rejected once clinging to it is no longer tenable. Universal flood, polygamy, priesthood ban, hemispheric Book of Mormon model, evolution, Zion gathering, united order and no death before the fall come to mind...I'm sure others can think of more examples where the church has changed or abandoned core foundational doctrines.

But like the passengers in a bus going over a cliff...they do so screaming, kicking and fighting it all the way...

The Church isn't as fundamentalistic and dogmatic as you all have been insisting it is? And we're the ones kicking and fighting? What about all the blowhards spending all their time telling us plebs how the Church is, and then bitching and moaning after they're shown that they're wrong?

I'm pretty sure that I showed that the prophets establish doctrine through constant publication and that the global flood is doctrine. But hey, you can argue with LDS.org about that.

[_mentalgymnast]

How do you fail to appreciate the glaring negative implications of things like a global, universal flood? You and maklekan try to claim that members can take this doctrine or leave--it makes no difference. Well that's all well and good, but the more pressing issue here is that Joseph Smith and virtually all church leaders are unambiguously on record with the understanding that there really was a global, universal flood.

With their understanding.

Regards,
MG

[_SteelHead]

With this logic we can argue away any teaching of the church. Baptism? Prophets speaking as men. Atonement? Didn't really happen. Prophets speaking as men. The church has no doctrines.

[_sock puppet]

With this logic we can argue away any teaching of the church. Baptism? Prophets speaking as men. Atonement? Didn't really happen. Prophets speaking as men. The church has no doctrines.

Except that "the Church is true". It is the only concept that is non-negotiable for the LDS.

[_mentalgymnast]

How do you fail to appreciate the glaring negative implications of things like a global, universal flood? You and maklekan try to claim that members can take this doctrine or leave--it makes no difference.

I've grown up with stories of the flood, but I'm not under any compulsion to believe that a world wide flood actually occurred on a global scope. Those in positions of authority may have, in some/many cases, believed this to be TRUE, but that doesn't make it so. Not to say that this may have been their understanding based upon their life experience.

Donald W. Parry included.

But I'm not under any obligation to disbelieve in the core doctrines concerning the atonement of Christ, prophets, salvation, etc., simply because I may have concerns/doubts in regards to the story/narrative of a world wide global flood at the time of Noah.

Regards,
MG

[_SteelHead]

Man up, own what your prophets have taught..... Or why believe in the resurrection & atonement, but not the global flood? Both events are just as impossible as the other, and neither has any real supporting evidence.

[_mentalgymnast]

Man up, own what your prophets have taught..... Or why believe in the resurrection & atonement, but not the global flood? Both events are just as impossible as the other, and neither has any real supporting evidence.

I don't look at these "events" as being in the same ball park. Resurrection and atonement have to do with the cosmic/eternal...BIG stuff. Stories of a global flood are just that. Earth based and singular and within a very small chronological sliver of time and space that is much BIGGER when we consider, or at least try to, its entirety. Resurrection and atonement narratives, however, fit within a BIGGER picture. And the possibilities are literally endless. That is, of course, if we go with the assumption/hope that we go on existing after we die.

The big IF.

As I've said before on this forum, if we start with a creator/God...and jump to "does He have a plan?"...and if we are part of that plan right now doing our thing...and if there are going to be some things needing fixing because of misuse of agency and a fallen world (brokenness)...then someone or something is going to have to Fix It (Coldplay fading in with "Fix You" at this point). Then comes the continuation (it doesn't just stop, does it?) of God's plan onwards and upwards into eternity with us little wee new born resurrected beings, that once upon a time were mortals, continuing in our own way to move along that plan of eternal progress, etc.

That's a lot BIGGER than whether there was a world wide global flood at the time of Noah.

Regards,
MG

[_Tobin]

MG,

As you know, I don't believe in the Universal Flood and I also don't believe in the atonement. I think both are superstitious nonsense.

If the account of Noah has a basis in fact, it was a large local flood (perhaps the flooding of the Black Sea basin).
If the account of Jesus has a basis in fact, then the sacrifice was such an immortal, powerful being coming to earth and becoming human. I fail to see what his death accomplished (other than to satiate the blood cultist that believed there was magic in blood). After all, God was just as capable of saving us (and resurrecting us) before he was one of us as he was after. What he learned about being human was invaluable and radically changed how he deals with us however. That is why his sacrifice (being human) was necessary. And of course, he set us a new example of how we should behave.

Tobin

[_sock puppet]

How do you fail to appreciate the glaring negative implications of things like a global, universal flood? You and maklekan try to claim that members can take this doctrine or leave--it makes no difference.

I've grown up with stories of the flood, but I'm not under any compulsion to believe that a world wide flood actually occurred on a global scope. Those in positions of authority may have, in some/many cases, believed this to be TRUE, but that doesn't make it so. Not to say that this may have been their understanding based upon their life experience.

Donald W. Parry included.

But I'm not under any obligation to disbelieve in the core doctrines concerning the atonement of Christ, prophets, salvation, etc., simply because I may have concerns/doubts in regards to the story/narrative of a world wide global flood at the time of Noah.

Regards,
MG

What are you under compulsion as an LDS to believe?

[_mentalgymnast]

What are you under compulsion as an LDS to believe?

That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,the Savior and Redeemer of humankind; that he lived, taught, healed, suffered, and died for our sins; and that he rose from the dead the third day with a glorious, immortal, and resurrected body.

Belief in the Godhead. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

That the gospel of Christ has been restored in its fullness in our day.

That God has called prophets and apostles in our day and that the prophet is the only one on earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys.

Believe in the efficacy and truth of following and/or believing...walking in obedience...to the questions that are asked during a temple recommend interview.

I think you could throw the thirteen articles of faith in there too.

A world wide flood at the time of Noah that covered the whole planet...not so much. If it DID happen, I'm all ears for an explanation at a later date.

Regards,
MG