Bazooka wrote: I think you hit on an interesting spin-off question. What doctrines within Mormonism are non negotiable as far as retaining membership in good standing is concerned?
I think the question needs to be expanded a bit, given the theme of this forum.
So often when this someone attempts to answer this question there is very little left that distinguishes Mormonism from everyday Christianity. So for me the real question would be:
Which doctrines, beyond those which are shared by mainstream Christians, are necessary to distinguish someone as a Mormon TBM?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
It's in the scriptures. It's consistently taught by Prophets and Apostles. The Church has never published the slightest hint that it might have been a local or allegorical flood (and in the Parry article and other places, it has explicitly contradicted those ideas).
Yet apologists insist there is wiggle room. Sure, the Church won't kick you out if you don't believe in a global flood, but since when was "not getting kicked out" the standard by which we judge doctrine?
It's in the scriptures. It's consistently taught by Prophets and Apostles. The Church has never published the slightest hint that it might have been a local or allegorical flood (and in the Parry article and other places, it has explicitly contradicted those ideas).
Yet apologists insist there is wiggle room. Sure, the Church won't kick you out if you don't believe in a global flood, but since when was "not getting kicked out" the standard by which we judge doctrine?
Are you suggesting that Mormons should believe something that isn't true just because it is "taught in Church"? I think the standard in Mormonism to determining the truth of any particular doctrine is for each Member to search it out in their own mind through a diligent process of study and ultimately seek the Lord to learn the truth of all things.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Are you suggesting that Mormons should believe something that isn't true just because it is "taught in Church" taught by Gods prophet?
One of the distinguishing features of Mormonism is that if it is taught by Gods prophet, then it is true.
Tobin wrote:I think the standard in Mormonism to determining the truth of any particular doctrine is for each Member to search it out in their own mind through a diligent process of study and ultimately seek the Lord to learn the truth of all things.
I did and the conclusions I came to coupled with teachings from the church cause my parents, wife, and siblings to believe I'm damned. Future president of the church Bednar has made clear that he agrees with this thinking.
Tobin wrote:Are you suggesting that Mormons should believe something that isn't true just because it is "taught in Church" taught by Gods prophet?
One of the distinguishing features of Mormonism is that if it is taught by Gods prophet, then it is true.
How do you know he's God's prophet unless God has told you he is? Seems like a silly way to go about things to just assume that is true without speaking with him first.
Good Clean Fun wrote:
Tobin wrote:I think the standard in Mormonism to determining the truth of any particular doctrine is for each Member to search it out in their own mind through a diligent process of study and ultimately seek the Lord to learn the truth of all things.
I did and the conclusions I came to coupled with teachings from the church cause my parents, wife, and siblings to believe I'm damned. Future president of the church Bednar has made clear that he agrees with this thinking.
I'd be more interested in whether God thinks you are damned or not if I were you.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
BSCpace cynically uses the idea of "not doctrine!"
Total B.S. The Church's definition of doctrine leaves a much larger playground for self-serving anti-Mormons to romp in than the tight little space allowed by some other self-serving apologists. I'm usually the one pointing out that thus-and-so is official doctrine. It's not my fault you can't find a way to use all the available room.
moksha wrote:I see the insistence of a global flood as being akin to the practice of trepanning. It simply is not good for us on a long term basis.
We would live as long as until dawn.
Sinuhe, The Egyptian wrote:“I do not permit him to touch the god,” said the Queen. “I will hold the god’s head if it be needful.”
Ptahor protested that the task was an unpleasant and bloody one; nevertheless, she took her place on the edge of the bed and most carefully raised the head of her dying husband into her lap, heedless of the saliva that dripped onto her hands.
“He is mine,” she said, “and no one else shall touch him. It is from my arms that he shall enter the realms of death.”
“He shall step aboard the ship of his father the sun,” said Ptahor, incising the scalp with his flint knife. “Of the sun was he born, to the sun shall he return, and all people shall praise his name from everlasting to everlasting-In the name of Set and all devils, what is the blood stauncher about?”
He had been talking to distract the Queen’s thoughts from the operation, as a skillful doctor will talk to a patient to whom he is causing pain, but the last phrase was hissed at the peasant, who was leaning against the door post with sleepy, half-shut eyes. Sluggish blood had begun to well from Pharaoh’s head and run down into his consort’s lap so that she flinched and her face turned a yellowish gray. The man roused himself from his thoughts-thoughts no doubt of his oxen and his irrigation ditches-remembered his duty, and approaching the bed, he looked at Pharaoh and raised his hands. The flow of blood ceased at once, and I washed and cleaned the head.
“Forgive me, my little lady,” said Ptahor, taking the bore from my hand. “To the sun-ay, indeed, straight to his father in the golden ship, the blessing of Ammon be upon him.”
While he was speaking, he spun the bore swiftly and deftly between his hands so that it grated its way into the bone. The prince opened his eyes, took a step forward, and his face quivered as he said, “Not Ammon but Ra-Herachte shall bless him, and he manifests himself in Aton.”
“Ay, indeed, Aton,” murmured Ptahor soothingly. “Aton, of course-a slip of the tongue.” He took his flint knife again and the ebony- handled hammer, and with light taps began to remove the piece of bone. “For I remember that in his divine wisdom he raised up a temple to Aton. That was surely soon after the prince’s birth, was it not, fair Taia? One moment.”
He glanced uneasily at the prince, who was standing by the bed with clenched fists and twitching face.
“A mouthful of wine would steady my hand and do the prince no harm. At such a time as this one might well break the seal of a royal jar. There!”
I handed him the forceps, and he jerked out the piece of bone with a gfating noise.
“A little light, Sinuhe!”
Ptahor heaved a sigh, for the worst was over, and so did I. The same feeling of relief seemed to be communicated to the unconscious Pharaoh, for his limbs stirred, his breathing grew slower, and he sank into a yet deeper coma. Ptahor contemplated Pharaoh’s brain thoughtfully in the bright light, where it lay exposed: it was grayish blue, and it quivered.
“Hm,” he said musingly. “What is done is done. May his Aton do the rest for him, for this is a matter for gods, not men,”
Lightly and carefully he fitted the piece of bone back into place, smearing size into the crack, drew together the edges of the wound, and bandaged it. The royal consort laid his head over a neck rest of rare wood and looked at Ptahor. Blood had dried upon her, but she did not heed it. Ptahor met her fearless gaze without making obeisance, and said in a low voice, “He will live until dawn, his god permitting.”
Then he raised his hands in a gesture of sorrow, and so did I. But when he raised them to show sympathy, I dared not follow his example, for who was I to pity royalty? I purified the instruments in fire and put them back in the ebony box.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
BSCpace cynically uses the idea of "not doctrine!"
Total B.S. The Church's definition of doctrine leaves a much larger playground for self-serving anti-Mormons to romp in than the tight little space allowed by some other self-serving apologists. I'm usually the one pointing out that thus-and-so is official doctrine. It's not my fault you can't find a way to use all the available room.
B.C. Does the definition of "official doctrine" that you use come from the Newsroom statement solely, or are there other statements that you have read?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)