DaddyB wrote:You are misinterpreting what the church is saying. They are not claiming that Abraham was not the original author. They are only claiming that he did not write on the actual pieces of papyri that Joseph had. There is a big difference. Believers in the Bible have no problem accepting the idea that Paul wrote with his own hand the epistles to the Corinthians or the other epistles, but we know today that the epistles in our Bibles were not translated from the actual material that Paul wrote on. This really is pretty simple stuff and nothing to be concerned about. I see no contradiction at all. Here is a short video of an Egyptologist explaining this principle: http://mormonchallenges.org/papyri-not-so-old/
Fair enough...so written by his own hand does not mean written by his own hand. Ok
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace
"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick
“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
DaddyB wrote:You are misinterpreting what the church is saying. They are not claiming that Abraham was not the original author. They are only claiming that he did not write on the actual pieces of papyri that Joseph had. There is a big difference. Believers in the Bible have no problem accepting the idea that Paul wrote with his own hand the epistles to the Corinthians or the other epistles, but we know today that the epistles in our Bibles were not translated from the actual material that Paul wrote on. This really is pretty simple stuff and nothing to be concerned about. I see no contradiction at all. Here is a short video of an Egyptologist explaining this principle: http://mormonchallenges.org/papyri-not-so-old/
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
DaddyB wrote:You are misinterpreting what the church is saying. They are not claiming that Abraham was not the original author. They are only claiming that he did not write on the actual pieces of papyri that Joseph had. There is a big difference. Believers in the Bible have no problem accepting the idea that Paul wrote with his own hand the epistles to the Corinthians or the other epistles, but we know today that the epistles in our Bibles were not translated from the actual material that Paul wrote on. This really is pretty simple stuff and nothing to be concerned about. I see no contradiction at all. Here is a short video of an Egyptologist explaining this principle: http://mormonchallenges.org/papyri-not-so-old/
Oh you silly, silly man, everyone knows that Chapter Headings ARE NOT Mormon doctrine. They are simply suggested "meaning" of what "might" be found in the following verses. They in NO WAY represent what the Mormon church tells those seeking understanding from their sacred text.
Silly, Silly, Silly, man
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DaddyB wrote:You are misinterpreting what the church is saying. They are not claiming that Abraham was not the original author. They are only claiming that he did not write on the actual pieces of papyri that Joseph had. There is a big difference. Believers in the Bible have no problem accepting the idea that Paul wrote with his own hand the epistles to the Corinthians or the other epistles, but we know today that the epistles in our Bibles were not translated from the actual material that Paul wrote on. This really is pretty simple stuff and nothing to be concerned about. I see no contradiction at all. Here is a short video of an Egyptologist explaining this principle: http://mormonchallenges.org/papyri-not-so-old/
The sweet language of graphics. Internet, meet chapel. Well played, Quasi.
Who cares if the church changes the explanation as to whether the papyrus was actually written by Abraham's hand? At the end of the day, the actual papyrus has "0" in common with what Joseph Smith puported it to say regardless of whether Abraham wrote it or not. Critics and apologists arguing about Abraham's involvement in the papyrus is wasted energy and deflecting focus from the real issue.
-What if Joseph Smith never claimed the papyrus was written or owned by Abraham? Joseph Smith still royally %$#@ed up translating it since the Book of Abraham doesn't match the papyrus. -What if it was true that Abraham actually did author the papyrus Joseph Smith had? Joseph Smith still royally %$#@ed up translating it since the Book of Abraham doesn't match the papyrus. -What if the church once said Abraham wrote it with his own hand and then disavowed they ever said that? Joseph Smith still royally %$#@ed up translating it since the Book of Abraham doesn't match the papyrus.
DaddyB wrote:You are misinterpreting what the church is saying. They are not claiming that Abraham was not the original author. They are only claiming that he did not write on the actual pieces of papyri that Joseph had. There is a big difference.
I agree with you that that is what the church is saying.
When Joseph Smith said "That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful," what do you suppose he meant by that? That Joseph Smith was claiming that his audience was viewing a modern copy of something Abraham once wrote by hand? Does "handwriting" to you merely mean the intellectual content of what is written, or does it mean the actual physical representation in symbols?
If I point at a printed copy of The Hobbit, and tell you that is the handwriting of J. R. R. Tolkien, does that make any sense to you?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
just me wrote:It's much more difficult to toss things down the memory chute in the days of the Interwebz. Poor church.
Ironic isn't it?
The essay on polygamy uses references from 30 years or more after the fact to support the notion that Fanny might of been "married" to J.S. But when it come to contemporary accounts of what J.S. said about Abraham actually writing on the papyri, it can be disregarded.
LDS Apologetics is, by necessity, unabashedly inconsistent.
Sethbag wrote:I agree with you that that is what the church is saying.
When Joseph Smith said "That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful," what do you suppose he meant by that? That Joseph Smith was claiming that his audience was viewing a modern copy of something Abraham once wrote by hand? Does "handwriting" to you merely mean the intellectual content of what is written, or does it mean the actual physical representation in symbols?
If I point at a printed copy of The Hobbit, and tell you that is the handwriting of J. R. R. Tolkien, does that make any sense to you?
If memory serves me right...didn't joseph point to a word on the papyri and say something like..."look there, that's Abraham's signature"
Yup found it:
"[Joseph Smith] then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted. . . . There, said he, pointing to a particular character, that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham." (“A Glance at the Mormons,” The Friend; a Religious and Literary Journal 13, no. 43 [July 25, 1840]: 342–43.)
Oooh SNAP !!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace
"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick
“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
DaddyB wrote:You are misinterpreting what the church is saying. They are not claiming that Abraham was not the original author. They are only claiming that he did not write on the actual pieces of papyri that Joseph had. There is a big difference.
I agree with you that that is what the church is saying.
When Joseph Smith said "That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful," what do you suppose he meant by that? That Joseph Smith was claiming that his audience was viewing a modern copy of something Abraham once wrote by hand? Does "handwriting" to you merely mean the intellectual content of what is written, or does it mean the actual physical representation in symbols?
If I point at a printed copy of The Hobbit, and tell you that is the handwriting of J. R. R. Tolkien, does that make any sense to you?
$10 says DaddyB doesn't come back to proffer a retort... I think he got burned in this thread by the visual aid provided by Quasi.
