IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

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_suniluni2
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _suniluni2 »

readtoomuch wrote:
You are free to believe what you want to. I am not always right but most of the time I am. Not sure where you are trying to go with your points. I am just saying what I see and how I feel. If it makes you feel good to correct me, ok. This is just how I see it. I think the church wants you to think he was a polygamist because I just do. I made all the comments that I intend to make.


Daniel Patrick Moynihan — 'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.'
_grindael
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _grindael »

You are free to believe what you want to. I am not always right but most of the time I am. Not sure where you are trying to go with your points. I am just saying what I see and how I feel. If it makes you feel good to correct me, ok. This is just how I see it. I think the church wants you to think he was a polygamist because I just do. I made all the comments that I intend to make.


I'm only correcting you on the historical facts--not opinions--which are that Smith practiced polygamy, there is contemporary evidence to back this up--and that his assault took place in Hiram (not Kirtland) and took place well before the Fanny Alger incident.

I did agree with a lot of your conclusions. But it only hurts your case when you try and deny that Smith practiced polygamy and that they made up evidence later to back it up. They had a "spiritual wife" system in place in Nauvoo during Smith's lifetime (polygamy). They were performing "Celestial Marriages" and adding wives to themselves (polygamy). There is just too much evidence to deny this. It's rather childish to try and psychoanalyze someone over facts. You have no idea how I "feel" about you, obviously. I don't know you, I only know what the evidence is, and some of it you are dead wrong about. Calling it what it is (polygamy) doesn't do Joseph Smith any favors. He still broke the law, still committed adultery, and still married 14 year olds in addition to his affairs.

The church WANTS me to think Joseph was a polygamist because you just do? What does that even mean? No, the church has been trying to obfuscate Smith's practice of polygamy. Mormon apologists have been promoting the idea that Smith was only sealed to many of his wives. That is why this is big news now. The evidence proves that he practiced it.
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One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
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_readtoomuch
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _readtoomuch »

I'm only correcting you on the historical facts--not opinions--which are that Smith practiced polygamy, there is contemporary evidence to back this up--and that his assault took place in Hiram (not Kirtland) and took place well before the Fanny Alger incident.



For what it is worth, although I said Fanny Alger, I really did mean to say Miranda Johnson. I have actually been to the Johnson home and perhaps walked through the very door he was dragged out of. Despite my using the wrong name, my point was still valid. The mob wasn't upset about his preaching. They were most likely upset with his fooling around with Miranda more that they were comfortable with. My point was and still is..........Joseph Smith had a particular weakness for the ladies. So, Miranda Johnson, Fanny Alger and even Lucinda Morgan Harris claimed to have been his mistress back in Far West for over four years. ( I read this in the book "No man knows my history" Brodie. So the evidence is somewhat on my side too. Yea, they all called it what they wanted to. But I still see it for what it was........Adultery. Set up to cover up his weakness for women and to secure his reputation. So I am not denying what your saying either but I am not "off the reservation" in my theory. So if my theory is right, then Brigham Young modified it and made it more respectful. Since Celestial Marriage is in-separately connected to polygamy, I have a major problem with the doctrine itself. I just don't think the church wants members to make the same connection.
_Nevo
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _Nevo »

readtoolittle wrote:The mob wasn't upset about his preaching. They were most likely upset with his fooling around with Miranda [sic] more that they were comfortable with.

Huh. Well, I guess you're the expert on that mobbing thing whenever/wherever that was.

What was the evidence again that Joseph was fooling around with Marinda Johnson?
_Fence Sitter
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Nevo wrote:
readtoolittle wrote:The mob wasn't upset about his preaching. They were most likely upset with his fooling around with Miranda [sic] more that they were comfortable with.

Huh. Well, I guess you're the expert on that mobbing thing whenever/wherever that was.

What was the evidence again that Joseph was fooling around with Marinda Johnson?


Rumors are that the mob held a meeting right before the fact in which members of the mob got up and testified about Joseph Smith taking advantage of Miranda. Everyone there felt a burning in their bosom confirming the facts of the illicit affair, though some later versions think the warm feelings were just the heat coming from the fire heating the tar.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_CameronMO
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _CameronMO »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Nevo wrote:Huh. Well, I guess you're the expert on that mobbing thing whenever/wherever that was.

What was the evidence again that Joseph was fooling around with Marinda Johnson?


Rumors are that the mob held a meeting right before the fact in which members of the mob got up and testified about Joseph Smith taking advantage of Miranda. Everyone there felt a burning in their bosom confirming the facts of the illicit affair, though some later versions think the warm feelings were just the heat coming from the fire heating the tar.

:lol:

Perfect!
Trimble, you ignorant sack of rhinoceros puss. The only thing more obvious than your lack of education is the foul stench that surrounds you.
_readtoomuch
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _readtoomuch »

Huh. Well, I guess you're the expert on that mobbing thing whenever/wherever that was.

What was the evidence again that Joseph was fooling around with Marinda Johnson?



I don't claim to be an expert. I read about this when I read Fawn Brodie's book "No man knows my history" p. 462 Don't get too rattled.......it is based on journals and documented conversations. So, it is only as true as those who wrote it down.
_Bazooka
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _Bazooka »

readtoomuch wrote:
Huh. Well, I guess you're the expert on that mobbing thing whenever/wherever that was.

What was the evidence again that Joseph was fooling around with Marinda Johnson?



I don't claim to be an expert. I read about this when I read Fawn Brodie's book "No man knows my history" p. 462 Don't get too rattled.......it is based on journals and documented conversations. So, it is only as true as those who wrote it down.


Shades is gonna bitch slap you senseless for "quote" feature abuse....
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_ludwigm
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _ludwigm »

readtoomuch wrote:
(nothing)
(nothing)
Bazooka wrote:Shades is gonna bitch slap you senseless for "quote" feature abuse....

She is a blonde...
If you lock up her in a room with two 50kg iron balls, she loses the one and corrupts the other.



--------------------------
No, I am not sexist, this is a joke circulating...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_grindael
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Re: IMHO, Joseph Smith was not a Polygamist.

Post by _grindael »

I find it interesting that you would try to back up your story with what Brodie wrote based on journals, but not give credence to the direct journal evidence that I quoted. Why is that? Also, Brodie wrote her history in 1945 and it is flawed by the fact that she did not have the access we do today to many of the contemporary journals. So I wouldn't be so certain of Brodie's interpretations. If Journals are that unreliable, then don't quote any of them, and then you don't have a theory at all. What ARE your conclusions based on then? How do you even know that Joseph committed adultery if you don't believe the journal entries/recollections of the time? That is just silly.

As for the 1831 assault, you are not taking into account all of the facts, you are seeing what you want to see. This has been your problem all along. The mob WAS upset at Joseph's preaching, they were almost all members of the church that were disaffected. Both Booth and Ryder had problems with Smith's "revelations". That is what he preached and taught.

And the evidence about Lucinda Harris is VERY LIMITED, and claiming that she was his "mistress" for four years in Far West is only based on speculation. There is NO contemporary evidence AT ALL to prove this.

You believe what fits your narrative. Your "theory" about a cover up is not right. It's not even close. I agree it was adultery, but it was not a cover up made later, Smith actually DID practice polygamy. They called it that. He had ceremonies where he married the women, and that is the fact of it. He cohabitated with some of them who lived with him in the Nauvoo House. I have a real problem with this invention theory because it is not backed up by any facts at all, and can be easily dismissed by the actual evidence we have.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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