Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

In the wake of the kerfuffle involving Benjamin Park's review-essay in the Mormon Studies Review, Ralph "The Doink" Hancock has written a wall-of-text response. Hancock opens by declaring his purpose:

I hope to contribute here to a distillation of these philosophical issues. I believe these issues are very important for Mormon scholars and thinkers (Meridian Expand’s intended audience) as we seek to pursue scholarship and simply to think carefully from a standpoint faithful to the Restoration. There are real personal and professional hazards to navigate as we honor eternal truth and at the same time share intellectual pursuits with others with their own priorities.


What might these "philosophical issues" be? Hancock goes on:

In a word, and to use a short-hand that risks being emotionally charged but whose convenience cannot be denied: there are those LDS scholars who mainly practice “apologetic” scholarship, and those who mainly practice “mainstream academic” scholarship, and reasonable people of each type recognizes the legitimacy of the other. Since the names are familiar to anyone who knows what I am talking about, let them be named: on the one hand, Daniel Peterson, who has raised critical questions about Benjamin Park’s review, agrees that a “Mormon Studies” that engages non-Mormon, even “secular” scholarship on Mormon things can be good for Mormon; while, on the other, Terryl Givens and David Holland, who have defended Park’s goals, though not necessarily his phrasing, agree (unlike some voices at the new Maxwell Institute) that “Mormon Apologetics” is a useful an intellectually respectable enterprise.


Now, I know I've seen DCP claim that he supports "Mormon Studies" and that he understands how it can be valuable, but can someone show me where Givens or Holland have *ever* characterized "Mormon Apologetics" as a "useful and intellectually respectable enterprise"? Hancock never says, and in fact, it's not clear what he means by "Mormon Apologetics," beyond the rather bland testimony-bearing and affirmation of the Book of Mormon's historicity. The apologists themselves denied repeatedly that they engaged in "testimony bearing" (cf. DCP's "The Witchcraft Paradigm"). So, what does Hancock think "Mormon Apologetics" is, exactly, and in what sense is it an "intellectually respectable enterprise"?

Later, he paraphrases Brian Birch:

Brian Birch wants to give apologetic scholarship a place at the Mormon Studies table, but only on condition that the apologists accept answering to the authority of academic standards: their positions must be “publicly sustainable” and “objectively correctable”: “they need to be publicly accessible to criticism and potential defeat.” Only in this way, he thinks, can the “conversation stopper” of appeal to authoritative revelation be avoided.


Birch, of course, makes an interesting point. And one might say that the apologists suffered an absolutely massive and devastating "defeat" in the form of their getting kicked out of the Maxwell Institute. But it's worth pausing and asking: what might Birch have meant by being "publicly accessible to criticism and potential defeat"? All along, many critics of classic-FARMS cited the nastiness and viciousness of far too many of the articles--everything from "Text and Context," to Hamblin's "That Old Black Magic," to Greg Smith's Dehlin "hit piece" (to say nothing of things like "Metcalfe is Butthead"). Could it be that Birch is asking whether or not the apologists are at last willing to own up to these criticisms and admit that they acted wrongly? (Further, how might Hancock defend any of the items I've cited as part of an "intellectually respectable enterprise"? Does he really know what he's defending here?)

Hancock wraps up on a somewhat maudlin note:

Truly to expand by engaging other thinkers and other traditions open to the perennial human search for Truth may appear to threaten certain “apologetic” enterprises, but, any engagement with such authentic forms of human seeking promises ultimately to nourish our appreciation of the Truths we think we already comprehend. Apologists and seekers must be friends, and they must invite mere contextualizing scholars to join them, but on the higher ground of the pursuit of Truth.


Sounds kind of nice on the surface, though again: how is this attitude supposed to flourish when some of the main advocates of apologetics are still stressing the need for "negative apologetics"?:

Two of the six participants in the roundtable propose a “strong pluralist” conception of the project of Mormon Studies. Daniel Peterson argues against indifference to the question of religious truth or falsity, and thus for the continuing role of apologetics, including “negative apologetics,” or the task of answering critics.


How is the "perennial human search for Truth" supposed to flourish in an atmosphere of ridicule, sadistic mockery, bullying, and smearing? At heart, this is what's wrong with Hancock's analysis--he seems completely and totally unfamiliar with the apologists' oeuvre, or with their various online antics, which to be frank, are part of the same general thing. I could be wrong, though. Perhaps Hancock really has read the Mopologists' work, and he really does think that it's part of an "intellectually respectable enterprise." If that's the case, let him defend "Questions to Legal Answers," or the Greg Smith "hit piece." Let him show us how writings like that fit into his utopian vision of collegial intellectual exchange. Without specific, concrete discussion of the sort of things I've mentioned, Hancock's discussion is pure hot wind.

In the "Comments" section to the piece, there is one response, from someone named "Jack":

Thank you, bro. Hancock. This is wonderful. Couldn't the MI just offer two journals? One dedicated to religious studies and the other to Mormon studies?


It's interesting that he says "religious studies" rather than "apologetics." And besides: there *is* an apologetics journal--it's called Mormon Interpreter! These days it is getting more and more difficult to determine what it is that the apologists want, exactly, besides revenge and the complete destruction of the new MI. They've got their journal; they get to say what they want; they've got their blogs. Do they want back in under the umbrella of respectability offered by BYU? Perhaps these are questions that Hancock might consider asking himself the next time he pens something for "Expand."
Last edited by Guest on Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Zadok
_Emeritus
Posts: 859
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:38 am

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _Zadok »

Ralph Hancock wrote:I hope to contribute here to a distillation of these philosophical issues.
You can tell that anyone who opens with a line like that is either full of crap, or full of himself. Either way, it's a cue to get the plunger...you're gonna need it.
A friendship that requires agreement in all things, is not worthy of the term friendship.
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Just in case there are any of the "Mormon Studies" crowd reading this post: look--I get the impulse to be respectful, and to try and distance the new MI from "classic-FARMS" via the language of academia. But you guys need to just lay your cards on the table, and say, firmly, that your problem with old-school apologetics is *not* that they are frank, testimony-bearing Book of Mormon literalists. You need to say, instead, that you don't consider their past antics "scholarly" in any sense of the word, and that you've got major problems with the un-scholarly ways that they attacked other writers and critics, including some fellow Latter-day Saints. You've got boatloads of examples to choose from: just go through the old issues of the Review, or more recent stuff in Mormon Interpreter. If you don't bring this up, you are going to be involved in a long, endless trench war with these guys. Yes, I realize that it's not really "nice"/"gentleman/womanly" to call these guys out, but if you don't, they're going to continue to claim that they were kicked out of the MI because you Mormon Studies folks want to "liberalize" the Church and destroy the historicity of the Book of Mormon. That's the way they're going to play this. You can let them, and play the waiting game (which might work, for all I know), but there is also something to be said for setting the record straight, and simply coming right out and saying that you don't consider them "scholarly" because of 3 decades+ of writing snarky letters to James White, posting "joke" pictures of African Americans getting lynched, "Metcalfe is Butthead," harassing the Tanners at their place of business and taking pictures of it, etc., etc., etc. The apologists want to continue doing this, and you guys are going to be their number one target for the foreseeable future, unless you stand up and do something about it. Look to John-Charles Duffy's "Defending the Kingdom, Re-thinking the Faith" if you want an example of how to do this.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _Gadianton »

Professor Scratch wrote:what might Birch have meant by being "publicly accessible to criticism and potential defeat"?


What I took away from this was that Sorenson's work was dropped on Mormondom like "BLU-82" dropped in 'Nom, as if it would settle the matter with its destructive force, but yet the war continued. I think what Birch is saying is that no assumptions of what the right model for Book of Mormon geography should be made in advance, and there should be some degree of falsifiability to the models. The apologists can't just say their model is right and then stonewall anyone with a different opinion.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_cwald
_Emeritus
Posts: 4443
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:53 pm

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _cwald »

Fascinating.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _Sethbag »

He totally lost me at:
Ralph the Inadvertently Ironic wrote:I believe these issues are very important for Mormon scholars and thinkers (Meridian Expand’s intended audience)
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Markk
_Emeritus
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 am

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _Markk »

Doctor Scratch wrote:In the wake of the kerfuffle involving Benjamin Park's review-essay in the Mormon Studies Review, Ralph "The Doink" Hancock has written a wall-of-text response. Hancock opens by declaring his purpose:

I hope to contribute here to a distillation of these philosophical issues. I believe these issues are very important for Mormon scholars and thinkers (Meridian Expand’s intended audience) as we seek to pursue scholarship and simply to think carefully from a standpoint faithful to the Restoration. There are real personal and professional hazards to navigate as we honor eternal truth and at the same time share intellectual pursuits with others with their own priorities.


What might these "philosophical issues" be? Hancock goes on:

In a word, and to use a short-hand that risks being emotionally charged but whose convenience cannot be denied: there are those LDS scholars who mainly practice “apologetic” scholarship, and those who mainly practice “mainstream academic” scholarship, and reasonable people of each type recognizes the legitimacy of the other. Since the names are familiar to anyone who knows what I am talking about, let them be named: on the one hand, Daniel Peterson, who has raised critical questions about Benjamin Park’s review, agrees that a “Mormon Studies” that engages non-Mormon, even “secular” scholarship on Mormon things can be good for Mormon; while, on the other, Terryl Givens and David Holland, who have defended Park’s goals, though not necessarily his phrasing, agree (unlike some voices at the new Maxwell Institute) that “Mormon Apologetics” is a useful an intellectually respectable enterprise.


Now, I know I've seen DCP claim that he supports "Mormon Studies" and that he understands how it can be valuable, but can someone show me where Givens or Holland have *ever* characterized "Mormon Apologetics" as a "useful and intellectually respectable enterprise"? Hancock never says, and in fact, it's not clear what he means by "Mormon Apologetics," beyond the rather bland testimony-bearing and affirmation of the Book of Mormon's historicity. The apologists themselves denied repeatedly that they engaged in "testimony bearing" (cf. DCP's "The Witchcraft Paradigm"). So, what does Hancock think "Mormon Apologetics" is, exactly, and in what sense is it an "intellectually respectable enterprise"?

Later, he paraphrases Brian Birch:

Brian Birch wants to give apologetic scholarship a place at the Mormon Studies table, but only on condition that the apologists accept answering to the authority of academic standards: their positions must be “publicly sustainable” and “objectively correctable”: “they need to be publicly accessible to criticism and potential defeat.” Only in this way, he thinks, can the “conversation stopper” of appeal to authoritative revelation be avoided.


Birch, of course, makes an interesting point. And one might say that the apologists suffered an absolutely massive and devastating "defeat" in the form of their getting kicked out of the Maxwell Institute. But it's worth pausing and asking: what might Birch have meant by being "publicly accessible to criticism and potential defeat"? All along, many critics of classic-FARMS cited the nastiness and viciousness of far too many of the articles--everything from "Text and Context," to Hamblin's "The Witchcraft Paradigm," to Greg Smith's Dehlin "hit piece" (to say nothing of things like "Metcalfe is Butthead." Could it be that Birch is asking whether or not the apologists are at last willing to own up to these criticisms and admit that they acted wrongly? (Further, how might Hancock defend any of the items I've cited as part of an "intellectually respectable enterprise"? Does he really know what he's defending here?)

Hancock wraps up on a somewhat maudlin note:

Truly to expand by engaging other thinkers and other traditions open to the perennial human search for Truth may appear to threaten certain “apologetic” enterprises, but, any engagement with such authentic forms of human seeking promises ultimately to nourish our appreciation of the Truths we think we already comprehend. Apologists and seekers must be friends, and they must invite mere contextualizing scholars to join them, but on the higher ground of the pursuit of Truth.


Sounds kind of nice on the surface, though again: how is this attitude supposed to flourish when some of the main advocates of apologetics are still stressing the need for "negative apologetics"?:

Two of the six participants in the roundtable propose a “strong pluralist” conception of the project of Mormon Studies. Daniel Peterson argues against indifference to the question of religious truth or falsity, and thus for the continuing role of apologetics, including “negative apologetics,” or the task of answering critics.


How is the "perennial human search for Truth" supposed to flourish in an atmosphere of ridicule, sadistic mockery, bullying, and smearing? At heart, this is what's wrong with Hancock's analysis--he seems completely and totally unfamiliar with the apologists' oeuvre, or with their various online antics, which to be frank, are part of the same general thing. I could be wrong, though. Perhaps Hancock really has read the Mopologists' work, and he really does think that it's part of an "intellectually respectable enterprise." If that's the case, let him defend "Questions to Legal Answers," or the Greg Smith "hit piece." Let him show us how writings like that fit into his utopian vision of collegial intellectual exchange. Without specific, concrete discussion of the sort of things I've mentioned, Hancock's discussion is pure hot wind.

In the "Comments" section to the piece, there is one response, from someone named "Jack":

Thank you, bro. Hancock. This is wonderful. Couldn't the MI just offer two journals? One dedicated to religious studies and the other to Mormon studies?


It's interesting that he says "religious studies" rather than "apologetics." And besides: there *is* an apologetics journal--it's called Mormon Interpreter! These days it is getting more and more difficult to determine what it is that the apologists want, exactly, besides revenge and the complete destruction of the new MI. They've got their journal; they get to say what they want; they've got their blogs. Do they want back in under the umbrella of respectability offered by BYU? Perhaps these are questions that Hancock might consider asking himself the next time he pens something for "Expand."


Hey Doc,

To those of us that do not follow this as closely as others...who is this Hancock, I read his bio, but has he written anything, or stepped into anything in regards to Mopology? Or is just a Mopologists PR man?

Merry Christmas
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _Gadianton »

Sethbag wrote:He totally lost me at:
Ralph the Inadvertently Ironic wrote:I believe these issues are very important for Mormon scholars and thinkers (Meridian Expand’s intended audience)


Yeah, it's funny to think about the simpletons who subscribe to Meridian as "scholars and thinkers" but, the apologists might be on to something. They know their reactionary, fundamentalist literalism is dead in the water. They broke away from the Church to build an edifice in academia that towers over the commoners in the pews, and from which they can laugh at their unsophisticated peers but now, they struggle to find acceptance among the new breed of diversity academics, they are forced to ally themselves with literalists like themselves, and outlets such as Meridian have plenty of them.

What they seem to be doing to Givens is setting him up. "Come, brother Teryl, and dazzle this audience with your slippery words -- they're used to confirming Joseph Smith by the axis of rotation of Venus, come and tell them it's only figurative."

These first rounds of negotiations have been a little rough, but there is still time. In my estimate, the apologists have six months to win over the masses to stand a fighting chance against the new MI.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _why me »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Just in case there are any of the "Mormon Studies" crowd reading this post: look--I get the impulse to be respectful, and to try and distance the new MI from "classic-FARMS" via the language of academia. But you guys need to just lay your cards on the table, and say, firmly, that your problem with old-school apologetics is *not* that they are frank, testimony-bearing Book of Mormon literalists. You need to say, instead, that you don't consider their past antics "scholarly" in any sense of the word, and that you've got major problems with the un-scholarly ways that they attacked other writers and critics, including some fellow Latter-day Saints.


Back in the day, apologists needed to hit back hard. It came with the game since the critics on the internet were very disrespectful when it came to church matters. Dan did a wonderful job defending the church which is one reason why critics reacted so strongly. But times are changing. Apologists have changed tactics to fit the times. Also, the lds church is publishing more material etc such as the JSP and essays. Now much is done on blogs and internet journals. Also, MI published wonderful material also. And now? I see no influence at all. It is forgotten.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Ralph Hancock Weighs in on "The New Maxwell Institute"

Post by _consiglieri »

One question.

Is Ralph Hancock Droopy?
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
Post Reply