Witnesses to FARMS' History

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_Kishkumen
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Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _Kishkumen »

From Enigmatic Mirror. See the comments to this post: http://shar.es/1H6lTB

Lou Midgley wrote:There was once talk about a building for the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, but it did not involve BYU. Instead, there was, I believe, a possible donor for such a building. Nothing came of it. And the current facility--B-49–has been transformed into a fine facility, and the land on which there were those three old shacks has been put to better use.

I heard directly from the one probably most responsible for the "request" by the Brethren for FARMS to become part of BYU that he (and others) were concerned that it would eventually "go south," if not owned and operated by the Church. But I pointed out that bureaucrats, administrators (aka equivocators) at BYU could easily become the agents of such a “new direction.” All it would take is someone at or near the top who did not see the need to defend the faith, and then a change of direction could easily be the order of the day. He agreed that I might be right. But, if that were to happen, then the Brethren, who know what they want from the institution, could and, I believe, will find subtle ways of sorting the matter. I am mildly optimistic. Why?

When I came to BYU, I immediately found myself, along with other Neanderthal type political conservatives on the faculty, being targeted as sympathetic with communism by the then President of BYU. It took years for that matter to be sorted, but it eventually was. Considerable patience and an ability to read the signs of the times are a necessity in such instances.

Complaints about the tone or style of the defense of the faith provided by the Maxwell Institute involve merely cosmetic matters, if not disingenuous, and do not address any substantive intellectual issue. There are, of course, always those who for whatever reason do not believe that the faith of the Saints can or ought to be defended. So some who complain either don’t really want a defense of the faith, or are made uncomfortable by discovering that there are real arguments and evidences, or they simply have no idea of the scope and richness of the literature produced by FARMS/Maxwell Institute. They opine on the basis of a crude stereotype. Such complaints may also hide a personal and/or an ideological agenda. There is solid evidence that this is the case. My hunch is that David Bokovoy is a bit naive about these matters.


William Hamblin wrote:Yes, as far as I can tell, the main motivation for forcing FARMS to join BYU was 1- to gain the real estate FARMS owned, and 2- to manage and redirect donations from FARMS (immediately to the BYU indoor sports training facility.) BYU promised to build a new building for FARMS if it would join BYU. (I was in the meeting with the President of BYU when that promise was made.) Nothing ever came of that promise. Instead the MI has been shunted off into a 60 year old marginal building (B49) on the furthest south edge of campus.


Lou Midgley wrote:I have a different take on this. It was, I believe, two of the Brethren who wanted to have the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies owned by the Church and housed at BYU. Who could resist their invitation? I had a conversation with one of the Brethren who was, as have explained above, deeply concerned about some future figure(s) taking FARMS in the wrong direction. I don't think that he knew or cared about the property on the south side of the campus, or funds that had been donated to FARMS. Instead, he valued the scholarship that expanded the knowledge and understanding of the Saints, and that also responded well to our many critics.

The problem has been bureaucrats who don't know or care about defending the faith or increasing our understanding of our scriptures and history, or those with with a revisionist agenda, or the combination of the two. Interpreter has demonstrated that one does not need all that much money to accomplish good things, though publishing books is likely to result in a net loss. And it would be nice to have full-time professional copy editors, and so forth,

The real problem is that the BYU administration was not at all interested in rewarding those who contributed to the Maxwell Institute. Doing Mormon studies and defending the faith has regularly been punished by the BYU administration. Elder Maxwell, at a dinner one evening, told me, and my Department Chair, so that others could hear what was said, that I should keep on doing what I was doing even if "they" never gave me a salary increase. This apostolic admonition actually helped me a bit in my Department. Ralph Hancock has demonstrated in the essay in First Things that what we say is one thing, but what we do is quite different. It is not easy to go up against bureaucrats whose idea of a university is strictly secular. I see this as a source of some of the recent problems.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_malkie
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _malkie »

How sad that the General Authorities of the church seem to be unwilling or unable to unmake the changes that Bill disapproves of, and/or make the changes that Bill approves of.

They (the GAs) are clearly taking direction from the wrong source.
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Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_sock puppet
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _sock puppet »

Lou Midgley wrote:I have a different take on this. It was, I believe, two of the Brethren who wanted to have the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies owned by the Church and housed at BYU. Who could resist their invitation? I had a conversation with one of the Brethren who was, as have explained above, deeply concerned about some future figure(s) taking FARMS in the wrong direction. I don't think that he knew or cared about the property on the south side of the campus, or funds that had been donated to FARMS. Instead, he valued the scholarship that expanded the knowledge and understanding of the Saints, and that also responded well to our many critics.

The problem has been bureaucrats who don't know or care about defending the faith or increasing our understanding of our scriptures and history, or those with with a revisionist agenda, or the combination of the two. Interpreter has demonstrated that one does not need all that much money to accomplish good things, though publishing books is likely to result in a net loss. And it would be nice to have full-time professional copy editors, and so forth,

The real problem is that the BYU administration was not at all interested in rewarding those who contributed to the Maxwell Institute. Doing Mormon studies and defending the faith has regularly been punished by the BYU administration. Elder Maxwell, at a dinner one evening, told me, and my Department Chair, so that others could hear what was said, that I should keep on doing what I was doing even if "they" never gave me a salary increase. This apostolic admonition actually helped me a bit in my Department. Ralph Hancock has demonstrated in the essay in First Things that what we say is one thing, but what we do is quite different. It is not easy to go up against bureaucrats whose idea of a university is strictly secular. I see this as a source of some of the recent problems.

I suppose instead of shucking the whole of Mormonism off, I too could have just selectively explained my penchants by attaching steadfastly to dead GAs. If I swear, there's J Golden Kimball to latch onto for that. If I want to have sex with other men's wives, women other than to whom I am married, etc., obviously I can take my cues from JSJr on that one. If I want to drink alcohol, use tobacco and drink coffee--JSJr's good for that too--not to mention to justify any glass-looking for hire or being paid for pointing land owners to the spot where hidden Spanish treasures willwon't be found. No tithing when BY was prophet, so he gets me out of that. Since no answer from god is answer, I have learned from DOM and SWK (re blacks and priesthood ban) that I just need to phrase questions in ways so that silence means the answer I want. Isn't it just marvelous to be able to pick and choose among the dead GAs for justification and guidance. Thant you, Lou, for showing us the way. When it comes to being a cafeteria Mormon, I like how you pick and choose, even among dead GAs, when ones to follow and which not.
_Tator
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _Tator »

sock puppet wrote:I suppose instead of shucking the whole of Mormonism off, I too could have just selectively explained my penchants by attaching steadfastly to dead GAs. If I swear, there's J Golden Kimball to latch onto for that. If I want to have sex with other men's wives, women other than to whom I am married, etc., obviously I can take my cues from JSJr on that one. If I want to drink alcohol, use tobacco and drink coffee--JSJr's good for that too--not to mention to justify any glass-looking for hire or being paid for pointing land owners to the spot where hidden Spanish treasures willwon't be found. No tithing when BY was prophet, so he gets me out of that. Since no answer from god is answer, I have learned from DOM and SWK (re blacks and priesthood ban) that I just need to phrase questions in ways so that silence means the answer I want. Isn't it just marvelous to be able to pick and choose among the dead GAs for justification and guidance. Thant you, Lou, for showing us the way. When it comes to being a cafeteria Mormon, I like how you pick and choose, even among dead GAs, when ones to follow and which not.


Happy New Year sock!

I guess I never realized I could be a Menu Mormon like you described.... maybe if my honesty meter was set a lot lower I could have lived with that.
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_Zadok
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _Zadok »

Tator wrote:I guess I never realized I could be a Menu Mormon like you described.... maybe if my honesty meter was set a lot lower I could have lived with that.
I tried, (briefly), to be a 'Menu-Mormon' and just enjoy the parts that I liked and ignore the rest. But doing that seemed to offend the cooks. They were constantly pounding the podium telling me that I had to take a large helping of haggis, tripe, and kimchi. The combination of which caused gastrointestinal discomfort and projectile vomiting.
A friendship that requires agreement in all things, is not worthy of the term friendship.
_Tator
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _Tator »

Zadok wrote:
Tator wrote:I guess I never realized I could be a Menu Mormon like you described.... maybe if my honesty meter was set a lot lower I could have lived with that.
I tried, (briefly), to be a 'Menu-Mormon' and just enjoy the parts that I liked and ignore the rest. But doing that seemed to offend the cooks. They were constantly pounding the podium telling me that I had to take a large helping of haggis, tripe, and kimchi. The combination of which caused gastrointestinal discomfort and projectile vomiting.


:biggrin: Luv ya, man, you are such a welcome addition to this board. Happy New Year.
aka Pokatator joined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
_Zadok
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _Zadok »

Tator wrote:Luv ya, man, you are such a welcome addition to this board. Happy New Year.
Thank you, you are way too kind. Happy New Year to you to. I sincerely hope this year will be better for the house of Zadok than last year.

I am not on the faculty of Cassius University, and think I may have flunked out my freshman year. But still I'm enjoying this group of misfits and academicians. :lol:
A friendship that requires agreement in all things, is not worthy of the term friendship.
_malkie
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _malkie »

Zadok wrote:
Tator wrote:Luv ya, man, you are such a welcome addition to this board. Happy New Year.
Thank you, you are way too kind. Happy New Year to you to. I sincerely hope this year will be better for the house of Zadok than last year.

I am not on the faculty of Cassius University, and think I may have flunked out my freshman year. But still I'm enjoying this group of misfits and academicians. :lol:

It's a bit of a paradox when you realise that you fit within the group.
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_Tator
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _Tator »

Zadok wrote:
Tator wrote:Luv ya, man, you are such a welcome addition to this board. Happy New Year.
Thank you, you are way too kind. Happy New Year to you to. I sincerely hope this year will be better for the house of Zadok than last year.

I am not on the faculty of Cassius University, and think I may have flunked out my freshman year. But still I'm enjoying this group of misfits and academicians. :lol:


Zadok, a tough year for the Tator family: my dad passed, they lost their home and everything to a fire 2 years ago and I had the stress of building my mom's new house this year and then I came close to losing my daughter she was on a transplant list for 5 years....she got a kidney/pancreas in Aug it was very tough on her but she is now doing well. It is going to be a good year.

As far as employment I was laid off as a ward janitor so I applied for a Sanitation Engineers position with Cassius University and I didn't even get a call. So I was so desperate I retired. Oh and sometimes I do make things up.
aka Pokatator joined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
_moksha
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Re: Witnesses to FARMS' History

Post by _moksha »

Zadok wrote: They were constantly pounding the podium telling me that I had to take a large helping of haggis, tripe, and kimchi. The combination of which caused gastrointestinal discomfort and projectile vomiting.


I would have forgone the haggis and tripe, and instead shouted to bring me a triple serving of kimchi. Could have taken a Quad-kimchi. Love that kimchi. Bishop Bulgogi too. Get enough and you feel the fullness of the Gospel.
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