The moral stature of God in LDS scripture

[_Darth J]

In the Waiting for Godot "Some benefits of attending Sunday meetings" thread, there is some speculation that the bloodthirsty sociopath certain episodes of the Old Testament make Yahweh out to be is the result of prejudices and so forth of the prophets who wrote these accounts. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37052&start=63

Since this problem is being relegated just to the Old Testament, I have to wonder what exactly God does in Mormon scripture to make him morally praiseworthy. As I suggested in that thread, let us take the example of Alma the Younger's insight into our loving, all-powerful Heavenly Father passively watching women and children being roasted alive:

Alma 14

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

Let's "liken the scriptures," as mighty Nephi taught us, and contemplate what it might look like if we were to apply our loving Heavenly Father's ethics in our own lives.

Scenario 1: Little Suzy is getting the living crap beat out of her by her older, bigger, stronger brother, Bobby. She is crying and screaming in pain as his fists rain down on her face and body. Blood is rushing from her nose; severe bruises have formed all over her. Mom says to Dad, "Huh, maybe we step in and protect Suzy, seeing as how we have the power to do so." But Dad says, "No, because we're going to punish Bobby afterward, and sitting here watching him beat the crap out of her will justify us in punishing him for the thing we allowed him to do in the first place."

Scenario 2: Two police officers are walking down the street, and see an elderly gentleman who is in no condition to protect himself lying on the ground in the fetal position, desperately trying to cover his face and abdomen from the gang of hooligans who are kicking and stomping on him and hitting him with bats and 2x4's and so forth (think of A Clockwork Orange if that helps). The rookie cop says, "You know, we're police and we're both armed and could easily go over and protect that guy. Waddya say?" And the veteran cop says, "No, we should let them keep mercilessly beating him, because then they'll get an even harsher sentence after they are convicted of assaulting him."

I'm sure there are many more scenarios one might think of in likening this passage from the most correct book on Earth. In any event, make the case that the God described in Mormon scripture is morally praiseworthy.

[_KevinSim]

In the Waiting for Godot "Some benefits of attending Sunday meetings" thread, there is some speculation that the bloodthirsty sociopath certain episodes of the Old Testament make Yahweh out to be is the result of prejudices and so forth of the prophets who wrote these accounts. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37052&start=63

Since this problem is being relegated just to the Old Testament, I have to wonder what exactly God does in Mormon scripture to make him morally praiseworthy. As I suggested in that thread, let us take the example of Alma the Younger's insight into our loving, all-powerful Heavenly Father passively watching women and children being roasted alive:

Alma 14

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

Let's "liken the scriptures," as mighty Nephi taught us, and contemplate what it might look like if we were to apply our loving Heavenly Father's ethics in our own lives.

Scenario 1: Little Suzy is getting the living crap beat out of her by her older, bigger, stronger brother, Bobby. She is crying and screaming in pain as his fists rain down on her face and body. Blood is rushing from her nose; severe bruises have formed all over her. Mom says to Dad, "Huh, maybe we step in and protect Suzy, seeing as how we have the power to do so." But Dad says, "No, because we're going to punish Bobby afterward, and sitting here watching him beat the crap out of her will justify us in punishing him for the thing we allowed him to do in the first place."

Scenario 2: Two police officers are walking down the street, and see an elderly gentleman who is in no condition to protect himself lying on the ground in the fetal position, desperately trying to cover his face and abdomen from the gang of hooligans who are kicking and stomping on him and hitting him with bats and 2x4's and so forth (think of A Clockwork Orange if that helps). The rookie cop says, "You know, we're police and we're both armed and could easily go over and protect that guy. Waddya say?" And the veteran cop says, "No, we should let them keep mercilessly beating him, because then they'll get an even harsher sentence after they are convicted of assaulting him."

You're missing the main ingredient of the Alma/Amulek story, Darth; Alma said, "The Spirit constraineth me." To really "liken the scriptures, the parent would only let the brother beat up the sister if the Spirit told him to, and it's far from obvious that the Spirit would tell him to. Similarly with the old man and the gang of hooligans.

I'm sure there are many more scenarios one might think of in likening this passage from the most correct book on Earth. In any event, make the case that the God described in Mormon scripture is morally praiseworthy.

The God described in Mormon scripture is certainly a lot more morally praiseworthy than the God described just by the Bible.

The Bible clearly says that some people will suffer unbearable agony from the time of their death to the end of eternity, while the Bible also says that God is omnipotent, which traditional Christians take to mean God has the power to annihilate those souls, cause them to cease to exist. How can anyone with a clear conscience worship a deity that had the ability to put an end to those souls' suffering, but chose not to do it?

On the other hand, LDS scripture makes it clear that there's an exception to God's omnipotence when it comes to intelligent life. Do&Co 93:29 clearly states that even God cannot create intelligence; it's not a major leap of logic to conclude that God cannot destroy what that verse says He cannot create. I believe the deity I worship would annihilate the souls of those who will suffer forever if He could, but He can't so He won't.

[_Sethbag]

So, Kevin, if the father of that family told the wife that the Spirit constrained him to let his son continue pummeling the daughter, what should the wife do? Accept that her husband has received his instructions from the Creator of the Universe and stand idly by, or reject that notion and intervene to help the daughter?

Or do you take some other tack, such as suggesting that she go off and fast and pray about it for a while to see if God sends her her own witness?

[Guest]

You're missing the main ingredient of the Alma/Amulek story, Darth; Alma said, "The Spirit constraineth me." To really "liken the scriptures, the parent would only let the brother beat up the sister if the Spirit told him to, and it's far from obvious that the Spirit would tell him to. Similarly with the old man and the gang of hooligans.

No, no, you are missing the point of the OP. "[C]ontemplate what it might look like if we were to apply our loving Heavenly Father's ethics in our own lives."

What those words mean is what if we acted like the God of Mormon scripture acts. If it would be wrong for us to do it, then it would be wrong for God to do it. We have no other frame of reference for judging morality. If you want to say that God has some higher purpose that we don't understand, then because we don't understand it we are incapable of evaluating it. That surrenders any justification for asserting that God is morally good.

The God described in Mormon scripture is certainly a lot more morally praiseworthy than the God described just by the Bible.

As Mormons claim that the God described in Mormon scripture is same as the God described in the Bible, it is difficult to see how that could be. Also, the God of Mormon scripture caused the worldwide flood in Noah's time, causes or allows to happen natural disasters that make the innocent suffer and/or die, and arbitrarily excludes from his presence forever anyone who fails to take the administrative steps (baptism, etc.) that he set up to begin with.

Oh, and he also uses extortion to get people to give him money. And to get Emma to go along with polygamy. There's that.

The Bible clearly says that some people will suffer unbearable agony from the time of their death to the end of eternity, while the Bible also says that God is omnipotent, which traditional Christians take to mean God has the power to annihilate those souls, cause them to cease to exist. How can anyone with a clear conscience worship a deity that had the ability to put an end to those souls' suffering, but chose not to do it?

I don't know why anyone would worship a deity like that, either. Ask someone who is stuck in the Telestial Kingdom for infinity because of what they did for a few decades based on the mortal weaknesses and limited knowledge God gave them after he put them on this planet.

On the other hand, LDS scripture makes it clear that there's an exception to God's omnipotence when it comes to intelligent life. Do&Co 93:29 clearly states that even God cannot create intelligence; it's not a major leap of logic to conclude that God cannot destroy what that verse says He cannot create. I believe the deity I worship would annihilate the souls of those who will suffer forever if He could, but He can't so He won't.

You are now confusing a limit on the Mormon God's power to destroy a co-eternal intelligence (whatever that is) with God's demonstrated (according to stories in Mormon scripture) willfully ignoring or actively causing suffering with no discernible purpose and exacting wildly disproportionate retribution in both this life and the next.

[_Darth J]

So, Kevin, if the father of that family told the wife that the Spirit constrained him to let his son continue pummeling the daughter, what should the wife do? Accept that her husband has received his instructions from the Creator of the Universe and stand idly by, or reject that notion and intervene to help the daughter?

Or do you take some other tack, such as suggesting that she go off and fast and pray about it for a while to see if God sends her her own witness?

Well, and there's the minor matter of why the Spirit coming from a perfectly moral and just deity would constrain anyone to idly watch innocent people suffer when they could prevent it. "So I will be justified in getting revenge for the thing I let them do in the first place" is not a very impressive moral ground to stand on.

[Guest]

On the other hand, LDS scripture makes it clear that there's an exception to God's omnipotence when it comes to intelligent life. Do&Co 93:29 clearly states that even God cannot create intelligence; it's not a major leap of logic to conclude that God cannot destroy what that verse says He cannot create. I believe the deity I worship would annihilate the souls of those who will suffer forever if He could, but He can't so He won't.

A couple of thoughts on that.

1. You are debating if God can 'annihilate souls' whereas Darth is contemplating the methodology being used by God to calculate judgement. These are two different things.

2. LDS doctrine (D&C, Kimball) claims that God gathers the intelligence that forms us. Therefore, said God could also disperse that intelligence, which would be the cessation of your soul, more or less.

ETA: correction on source for #2.

[_EAllusion]

Human beings can have their conscious experience radically altered through changes to their brain. The experience of torment can be given and taken away. This sort of manipulation is well within the powers of God in the LDS faith. To propose that "spiritual" conscious experiences cannot be modified similarly, if only through the means by which it is filtered through a brain, is extremely ad hoc.

[_Darth J]

Darth, these arguments are beneath your intellect. You are better than elementary school arguments about how mean god is.

Good to know that a philosophical/evidential problem that theists have failed to satisfactorily answer in over two millenia is an elementary school argument. You should contact Alvin Plantinga to let him know that the problem of evil is just an elementary school argument. I'm sure he would be relieved to know that much of his life's work has been unnecessary. Here's where you can get in touch with him: http://philosophy.nd.edu/people/alvin-plantinga/

[_palerobber]

we are all bait in Mormon God's grand cosmic sexual predator sting. but he can't haul off the perp until after we've been raped.

could this be a novel solution to the problem of evil? if god didn't allow evil in the world he'd have nothing to pin on the baddies.

[_malkie]

we are all bait in Mormon God's grand cosmic sexual predator sting. but he can't haul off the perp until after we've been raped.

could this be a novel solution to the problem of evil? if god didn't allow evil in the world he'd have nothing to pin on the baddies.

Would there even be baddies?

Or perhaps my favourite poet has it right:

That baddies are bad is undoubtedly true
However one studies the things that they do.
But what I find sad is how painfully few
have noticed that goodies are too.