The death of the Mormon Apologist - RIP 1832-2015

[_Tobin]

Maybe I've missed this before, or perhaps it's a new development. Either way, given there is a clear line between apocalyptic Jewish beliefs around the 2nd temple period, their occupation by gentile nations with resulting redemption mythology, and Christian reimagining of the redemption by God of His Chosen People I think you've stepped onto much thinner ice with this evolution in Tobinism. It's going to be interesting to see your thinking on how aliens injected this idea to have it reimagined first by the Jewish people as a belief that their chosen status was still effectual and would be honored by God in fiery glory, then by Christians for more or less similar reasons but without the underlying nationalism. I hope it's entertaining at least.

I think you are imposing things on the "return" of God that likely have nothing to do with it. If these beings have interfered with us as I've stated, and promised to return and bring with them a millennial age of paradise when we are ready, then the likely way that will happen is through technology, not magic. I doubt primitive notions of retribution will have anything to do with it.

[_honorentheos]

Maybe I've missed this before, or perhaps it's a new development. Either way, given there is a clear line between apocalyptic Jewish beliefs around the 2nd temple period, their occupation by gentile nations with resulting redemption mythology, and Christian reimagining of the redemption by God of His Chosen People I think you've stepped onto much thinner ice with this evolution in Tobinism. It's going to be interesting to see your thinking on how aliens injected this idea to have it reimagined first by the Jewish people as a belief that their chosen status was still effectual and would be honored by God in fiery glory, then by Christians for more or less similar reasons but without the underlying nationalism. I hope it's entertaining at least.

I think you are imposing things on the "return" of God that likely have nothing to do with it. If these beings have interfered with us as I've stated, and promised to return and bring with them a millennial age of paradise when we are ready, then the likely way that will happen is through technology, not magic. I doubt primitive notions of retribution will have anything to do with it.

That's missing the point. It's one thing to say primitive pre-literate humans interacted with aliens and interpreted this into the stories about God we have today. There's a certain unreachable distance between the claim and our ability to definitively demonstrate where the connect really lies.

In the case of a literate returning Jewish nation making sense of their world and identity post-captivity during multiple occupations by larger gentile nations, one has a lot less wiggle room to make such claims when connectivity and evolution of thought can be mapped out to a much more significant degree.

It's much harder to insert an alien in the later claim.

[_Tobin]

That's missing the point. It's one thing to say primitive pre-literate humans interacted with aliens and interpreted this into the stories about God we have today. There's a certain unreachable distance between the claim and our ability to definitively demonstrate where the connect really lies.

In the case of a literate returning Jewish nation making sense of their world and identity post-captivity during multiple occupations by larger gentile nations, one has a lot less wiggle room to make such claims when connectivity and evolution of thought can be mapped out to a much more significant degree.

It's much harder to hide an alien in the later claim.

You simply don't understand how primitive we are. We are like ants trying to comprehend human-beings. It doesn't matter in the slightest how literate the returning Jewish nation was or was not. Comprehending and thoroughly understanding the motives and nature of God was beyond them, just like it is beyond us.

[_honorentheos]

Except we can draw the map of Jewish apocalyptic belief without God as well. Neither aliens nor God are required to see how the idea originated and evolved in the available texts.

[_Tobin]

Except we can draw the map of Jewish apocalyptic belief without God as well. Neither aliens nor God are required to see how the idea originated and evolved in the available texts.

That may very well be. One way we'll know for certain is if and when these beings return. My view is this mistaken belief about the millennium is nothing more than these beings making the presence known to all of our species. Time will tell if I'm right or not.

[_honorentheos]

Sure. And in this time that is undeniably here without question or doubt, I'm happy to let you waste some of it hoping you are.

[_Tobin]

Sure. And in this time that is undeniably here without question or doubt, I'm happy to let you waste some of it hoping you are.

It is my beliefs and hopes. You certainly don't have to share them. That doesn't mean you are correct. As I said, we'll see. My hope is to see such a thing in my lifetime, but many who believe in the millennium have died with such hopes.

[_KevinSim]

Tobin, just out of curiosity, do you believe there is a God? If so, what do you believe about that God?

I don't believe in a white-haired magical father figure called God. Instead, I believe God, actually the gods, were once like us millions if not billions of years ago. But they have evolved and advanced, traveled the stars and visited here (likely long ago). It is these advanced beings that mankind (because we are so primitive) are mistaking for magical beings called God and angels. I believe the truth of the matter is that they monitor us, interfere with us from time-to-time to help us advance, but otherwise leave us to our own devices. When we have reached a certain point in our development they will introduce us to all the other advanced civilizations that likely surround us, but we are unaware of because of how primitive and savage we still are. That is what Christians mistake as the millennium.

As I told Black Moclips in the "Men doing for themselves what God won't do" thread, this is an interesting theory. In fact there's not a whole lot of difference between your theory and Black Moclips' theory; those two theories are definitely closer to each other than either is to mine. If your, and Black Moclips', quasi-deities are simply members of races more technologically advanced than ours is, then the possibility exists that those races can go extinct, just like the human race could go extinct, and whatever meaning that race might have might be temporary too. I'm looking for a deity that preserves forever some good things.

[_Tobin]

As I told Black Moclips in the "Men doing for themselves what God won't do" thread, this is an interesting theory. In fact there's not a whole lot of difference between your theory and Black Moclips' theory; those two theories are definitely closer to each other than either is to mine. If your, and Black Moclips', quasi-deities are simply members of races more technologically advanced than ours is, then the possibility exists that those races can go extinct, just like the human race could go extinct, and whatever meaning that race might have might be temporary too. I'm looking for a deity that preserves forever some good things.

I think you are mistaken. Even the Mormon God admits he could cease to be God if he chose to. I think you are looking for safety that doesn't exist. We have to choose to fight to exist, that seems to be even true for God.

[_cwald]

Tobin, just out of curiosity, do you believe there is a God? If so, what do you believe about that God?

I don't believe in a white-haired magical father figure called God. Instead, I believe God, actually the gods, were once like us millions if not billions of years ago. But they have evolved and advanced, traveled the stars and visited here (likely long ago). It is these advanced beings that mankind (because we are so primitive) are mistaking for magical beings called God and angels. I believe the truth of the matter is that they monitor us, interfere with us from time-to-time to help us advance, but otherwise leave us to our own devices. When we have reached a certain point in our development they will introduce us to all the other advanced civilizations that likely surround us, but we are unaware of because of how primitive and savage we still are. That is what Christians mistake as the millennium.

That sounds like Mormonism101...it's what I was taught growing up. ... which is why it surprises me the LDS faithful threw you under the bus. Is it because the church is embarrassed by its own doctrine?