John Gee, Historian

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Kishkumen »

grindael wrote:Mormon apologists like John Gee will go to the late evidence, the crafted narrative about Smith because this is the idealistic Joseph they worship and must be defended at all costs and in whatever dishonest manner they can invent.


This point is, I believe, worth dwelling on a little longer. A historian would pay extra attention to the earliest account of the First Vision because it is closer to the event in question and may better reflect Smith's state of mind before the concerns of running a church and city had transformed markedly his sense of the importance of his image within the context of those responsibilities. grindael is absolutely correct in his assessment of Gee's enterprise here. Gee is not defending history; Gee is defending Smitholatry. And this is where he departs from the responsible practices of scholarship and jingoistically defends the misconceptions of the tribe.

Faithful Mormon have much to gain from seeing Joseph Smith in a more realistic light. The 1832 account of the First Vision is an excellent resource for cultivating such understanding. Do I say this because I believe it is necessary to show that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon? No. I say this because too many Mormons falsely believe that Joseph was utterly naïve and innocent in the mode of a Disney princess, and that God reached down and miraculously poured knowledge into his empty head. Such a false narrative informs the expectations of good Mormons who imagine such things as their leaders conversing personally with the resurrected Christ like I hold my office hours with students.

And this kind of false impression is too easily taken advantage of. It cultivates a cult of God's chosen leader. Those who are the least bit savvy know that LDS leaders have at times expressed concerns about this being the case, but most of the leaders are ill-equipped to do the work necessary to disabuse the membership of these mistaken views. Well executed scholarship from the faithful and sympathetic outsiders can do such work without the leaders having to intone risky pronouncements that would, after all, effectively undermine the point anyway.

On another note, there is an ongoing discussion on Facebook regarding the distinction between scholarship and apologetics. Kevin Graham has been pointing out the problems with trying to draw too hard of a distinction between then two, when, depending on how one defines terms, they can overlap quite a bit. In the case of Gee's bitter attack against Owen's piece, which is motivated, it seems, by his anger regarding changes at the Maxwell Institute, I do not hesitate to disqualify his writing from the realm of scholarship. It is not even an attempt at scholarship. We know that Gee the Egyptologist is capable of high-caliber work, but no honest assessment of these blog posts aimed at Owen show anything of Gee the scholar. They show a bitter polemicist who willfully ignores good scholarly practice out of spite.

Gee is probably a fine Egyptologist. He is a deplorably bad representative of the scholars of Mormonism in his Church.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Ten Bear
_Emeritus
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Ten Bear »

Kishkumen wrote:
Faith-Promoting Rumor wrote:The fact that a leading LDS scholar attacked Owen in such a personal way that entirely mischaracterizes the essay is not going to invite other non-LDS scholars to join in the discussion as well.


My only bone to pick with this article.
Like I've said before. I do not consider them Scholars. That is not their mission. Their mission is to protect. They are Protectors. The truth doesn't matter.
"If False, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions… " - Orson Pratt on The Book of Mormon
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Chap »

Kishkumen wrote: ...

Gee is probably a fine Egyptologist. ...


We ought to hope he is. (Even though his best energies seem to be going in other directions than professional Egyptology.)

For if he isn't that at least, what is he?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Symmachus
_Emeritus
Posts: 1520
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Symmachus »

Chap wrote:
Kishkumen wrote: ...

Gee is probably a fine Egyptologist. ...


We ought to hope he is. (Even though his best energies seem to be going in other directions than professional Egyptology.)

For if he isn't that at least, what is he?


Among the Egyptologists I know, he has a reputation as an eccentric, but not a kook. In any event, being a fine Egyptologist is of no benefit anyway for doing history. Just because you know all about the development of Egyptian verb or about different Demotic handwritings or problems with the Egyptian chronology does not automatically mean that you can do good historical work.

Egyptology, as one very prominent Egyptologist put it to me once, is basically stuck in the late 19th century in terms of methodology and aims. The post-structuralist (or even structuralist) waves that hit most of the humanities from the 1960s until recently left little mark in Egyptology, where analyzing scribal handwriting, ink content, editing texts, and arguing about the phonetic facts of Egyptian vowels are still encouraged (from what I can gather; I am not Egyptologist but friends of mine who are describe it along these lines, and a quick and random glimpse at some recent dissertation abstracts doesn't suggest otherwise, but take that observation for what it's worth).

It was interesting to see Gee's musings on historiography in a scuffle with Bokovoy a few months back (discussed here); he never actually used the word "historiography," significantly, since seemed to think that "history" and "historiography" were the same thing. This comment of his struck me:

The Willam Gay Chair of John Gee's Hobby-blogging wrote:One problem with those who do not take the historical authenticity of the Hebrew Bible seriously is that they cannot seem to do much with the historical information actually contained in the Bible. Many of them have been trained solely in literary approaches to the Bible and the ancient Near East. (For example, when I took Ugaritic we only read literary texts from Ugarit; we did not read any of the historical ones; I discovered the historical texts later on my own.) Literary approaches have some merit, but they are only one approach and not always the best one. Lacking training with historical documents, some biblical scholars can only deal with ancient texts as literature and sometimes lack any feel for using documents to answer historical questions. Many biblical studies programs simply do not teach their students about history or archaeology. I feel sorry for those who come out of such programs.


I've underlined some key terms to highlight the distinction he makes: history vs. literature. The problem is, of course, that those "historical documents" are the literary texts in most cases. Gee seems not know that it is simply impossible to understand a lot of these literary texts without looking at their historical context, but at the same time that historical context is reconstructed in many cases from these same literary texts and therefore demands a literary approach as well. The Bible is the most obvious case.

What this means is that a great deal of theorizing needs to be done in dealing with them. Gee has, though, a very 19th century assumption that all we need to do is read it and the historical reality will be transparent to any fair-minded person; written = reality. As Bokovoy showed in that scuffle, though, this is simply not the case.

(Incidentally, archaeology, too, requires a tremendous amount of theorizing and interpretation, as FARMSian apologists always inject into any discussion of the Book of Mormon and archaeology. Ironic to see Gee appealing to archaeology here; I wonder whether he thinks Mesoamericanists need more or whether they ned less archaeological focus)

Gee's assumption seems to me be rather typical of Egyptology in general, and he seems to carry it over when doing "history" in the context of early Mormonism, where, in this latest instance, he doesn't think about what the Bible-as-text could mean outside of his own assumptions. Egyptology is a professional field, and however much he is a master of that field within the boundaries that its practitioners set, the results when he does work with those assumptions in other fields (biblical studies, early Mormon history) leave much to be desired.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Manetho
_Emeritus
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:35 am

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Manetho »

(Hello all. I am not and never have been a Mormon, but I'm a longtime lurker. I have a deep interest in Egyptology, though I'm not an Egyptologist myself, and I was drawn to the board by Book of Abraham-related stuff.)

Symmachus wrote:Gee's assumption seems to me be rather typical of Egyptology in general, and he seems to carry it over when doing "history" in the context of early Mormonism, where, in this latest instance, he doesn't think about what the Bible-as-text could mean outside of his own assumptions.

Well, I don't think it's quite that bad. Egyptologists may not evaluate the intent of texts as much as they should, but the best-known document of ancient Egyptian history is Ramses II's account of the Battle of Kadesh, which every student knows is riddled with tropes and distortions of reality to make the king look better. It would be a really obtuse Egyptologist who read every Egyptian text as naïvely as Gee seems to be doing with the Bible. And I do believe Egyptology is improving. There's been a lot of complaint in the past 20 years about how insular it is, and there's been a resulting surge in cross-disciplinary projects that I hope will bring better methodology into the field.

Incidentally, Egyptology does have a lot of analysis of the deeper meaning of texts, in studies of Egyptian religion. It may not always be as systematic or balanced as it should be, but it is very present. Egyptologists realized that they had to abandon a lot of previous assumptions about Egyptian religion, because the way they were approaching it in the mid-20th century really wasn't working. Ritner is too young to have led that shift in thinking, but he is surely a part of it. His most important book, The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice, spends a lot of its time shredding anthropologists for the careless way they applied the term "magic" to all kinds of cultures. Some of his other works have harsh words for other scholars who distort their work with subjective judgments, even in small ways.

And—to bring it back around to Mormon issues—I think this is important for understanding Ritner's interaction with Gee. Ritner taught Gee, and Gee turned around and used his learning to spout biased BS in defense of the Book of Abraham. Ritner's writings about the Joseph Smith papyri give the impression that he's personally offended by that. I don't think the Mormon apologists who accuse him of having a grudge against Gee are entirely wrong. But Ritner also wants to clear away Gee's BS, because he just hates BS.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Chap »

Manetho wrote:And—to bring it back around to Mormon issues—I think this is important for understanding Ritner's interaction with Gee. Ritner taught Gee, and Gee turned around and used his learning to spout biased BS in defense of the Book of Abraham. Ritner's writings about the Joseph Smith papyri give the impression that he's personally offended by that. I don't think the Mormon apologists who accuse him of having a grudge against Gee are entirely wrong. But Ritner also wants to clear away Gee's BS, because he just hates BS.


I think the last sentence nails it. I don't know any scholar who is not, to some degree, offended by reading material about their area of expertise that is simply wrong.

I'm not talking here about questions of broad historical judgement, such as whether Lee or Longstreet was more responsible for the Confederate defeat at Gettysburg - though many scholars do get annoyed if you disagree with them at that level - but more about failure to do the nuts-and-bolts stuff correctly, by applying the kinds of skills you are supposed to learn in graduate school. Each field has its own set of skills: I think Ritner's major problem with Gee is that he thinks that he trained Gee in skills that, if applied to the Joseph Smith papyri, should rule out the kinds of conclusions that Gee claims to have arrived at.

Or, to put it more bluntly, he is annoyed when someone publishes stuff that makes Egyptologists look dumb.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_ldsfaqs
_Emeritus
Posts: 7953
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:41 pm

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Kishkumen wrote:
John Gee wrote:Joseph Smith never read the Bible before he translated the Book of Mormon, did not even own one, and was ignorant of it. He seems never to have read the apocrypha in his life.


http://fornspollfira.blogspot.com/2015/03/on-latest-anti-mormon-attack-on-book-of.html


Actually you misrepresent John Gee....
If people actually read the article in the CONTEXT of his statement, he's referrencing that Joseph did not likely ever read the Bible to any great degree (a.k.a. beginning to end) prior to the Book of Mormon. He provides the evidences of that likelyhood in the article.

Gee likely did misspeak when he said that Joseph likely never read the Apocrypha (ever). As I think was quoted in an above post, Joseph once referred to it's value.

As to the "quoting" of the Bible in parts, it's very possible God himself put that image in his mind, for the sake of consistency and likeness, that things be similar to what is currently recorded. That the important thing is the message, and only anti-mormons would get hung up by focusing on the sameness.
God new very well about anti's.

---

One other thing..... I noticed you people conveniently ignored the fact that John Gee debunks the anti-mormon Owen's claim that Joseph copied from a particular Bible version text that didn't exist until 155 years later.

Just wow..... First you misrepresent what John Gee said, and then you completely ignore a total thrashing of one of your buddy's.
You people aren't interested in the "truth" at all.... nothing more than bigotry.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_ldsfaqs
_Emeritus
Posts: 7953
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:41 pm

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _ldsfaqs »

I would also like to point out that everyone is arguing that Joseph clearly knew the Bible well.
And you are right.....

However, Gee is right also.....
How?

Because Joseph clearly had a photographic memory.
He didn't read the Bible hardly at all while young, as Gee points out, but then when he did later only a little more, but still not that much, he knew it better than anyone. You don't read something very little as most testimony's indicate, yet know it better than anyone, unless you had a photographic memory. That is the only thing that explains the discrepincy of the historical record, those who say he read it very little, and those who say he knew it better than anyone.

This also explains how the parts of the Book of Mormon that copy's parts of the Bible verbatim, so-called errors and all occured.
The Book of Mormon revelation was alike enough to the Bible, he simply mirrored it from his own photographic mind.

----

Something else anti's ignore.
As most know Joseph went through a major operation while a young man, an operation that most died from previously, but new technology helped save him and his leg. And he had this operation without any sedative or alcohol.
Now, anyone that is familiar with how many people develop amazing gifts, they often occur through some great "trauma".
This explains how Joseph likely had a photographic memory, and also was able to see visions. A natural reason for these things. His mind was opened up in areas and ways most aren't, when his mind was still young and developing....

Other than being a youth and it's what youth do, for the Treasure Hunting.... he was starting to have his higher sight, and so he used it, and actually was successful, but also not a few times.
Then as he gained more and more experience, Heavenly being started to appear, and revelations started to come, he would see many things.
The connections of the stones to life itself also helped him see, until he didn't even need them. For example, most of the last bit of the Book of Mormon was revealed without having anything, stones or otherwise. It was pure revelation. He was clearly growing and mastering his gifts.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _I have a question »

ldsfaqs wrote:Other than being a youth and it's what youth do, for the Treasure Hunting.... he was starting to have his higher sight, and so he used it, and actually was successful,


You've made this claim before, you were asked to provide evidence of Joseph being successful at treasure seeking, you are yet to do so...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _I have a question »

ldsfaqs wrote:I would also like to point out that everyone is arguing that Joseph clearly knew the Bible well.
And you are right.....

However, Gee is right also.....
How?

Because Joseph clearly had a photographic memory.


That seems to have let him down when asked, under oath, about how many wives he had...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
Post Reply