Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

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Symmachus
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Symmachus »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 3:35 pm
I'd pay to see this occur. In fact, seriously I have set aside $100 to pay Ostler, or a scapegoat of his choosing, if he can win the argument, and all he has to pay me is $1 if he loses. 100 to 1 odds seems about right to me. (I got a bonus at work, I am truly willing to spend it on this).
A few stipulations lest assumptions get in the way. The discussion must occur on a regular basis over the course of say 6 months, which I believe is a decent time allotted for each side to gather their materials and be able to present them in a coherent fashion. In the spirit of fairness, neither side of those actually participating gets to crow that they won, only the two audiences, the Sic et Non group and this one are allowed to come to conclusions. We also ought to find a way to get some truly unpartisan judges in on this who have no horse in the race to also assess the results. We could set up a separate arena where ONLY a select group of folks can post in so as to prevent derailings occurring. We can chatter all we want out here in public land, while viewing the discussion in the selected spot of participants only.
We could ask Sic et Non to choose a panel of, what... say 5 scholars of their choosing, and we could select 5 of our choosing to participate in the debate. The rest of them there and we goons here can be the cheering/jeering section, of which, of course, the participants have full access to.
NO CENSORING OF ANY KIND ALLOWED IN THE PARTICIPATION ARENA. What is posted stays.
Lets see what BOTH sides have.
I'm all for it, seriously, and I will be the first to place my bet. 100 to 1 odds Ostler's team will lose, and the money has been set aside to be paid in full based on a fair jury hearing and judging... Let the evidences begin!
:lol: :lol: This would be fun, and I think it's a damn shame that they don't post here in the Celestial Room. I would love to engage them there on matters that interest me, and we would be free from the kinds of petty viciousness that occurs here sometimes and in the comments section of their blog. But there are no non-partisan judges when religion is on the line, and even if there were, the losing side would argue that the deck was stacked anyway. I offer you 100% certainty on that.

If there is one thing I wish the Interpreters could see, it is that it should not matter how many NHMs there are in Yemen, even if it is 0. They always say that, but the ferocious passion with which they defend the Book of Mormon stories they learned in primary gives the game away.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Philo Sofee »

Symmachus
If there is one thing I wish the Interpreters could see, it is that it should not matter how many NHMs there are in Yemen, even if it is 0. They always say that, but the ferocious passion with which they defend the Book of Mormon stories they learned in primary gives the game away.
Heh, interesting observation Symm... The other thing that has, through time, appears odd, is the exhuberance of placing all their eggs in the single basket of Nahom. As if that one evidence has the power to overcome 30 other seriously problematic concerns about the authenticity in so vastly many other areas. They imagine just 1 overcomes 10. But no actual sports game has ever been won on such a score... Yes, yes, this isn't sports, but it's the principle. One egg does not go very far in feeding a family of 10. 1 evidence does not overcome 10 other serious problems which can now be safely ignored because we have this 1 evidence, therefore it's ok to have faith its still true! It just seems to be over done to me.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Kishkumen »

Speaking for myself, I never saw the utility of arguing with apologists. At the end of the day, they will invariably say, "That's my position, and I am sticking to it." I am reminded of the debate a young friend and atheist counter-apologist had with one of the premier New Testament scholars and Christian apologists. Sorry but I forget his name. It was about what one would expect, despite the fact that everyone was cordial and well behaved. The apologist basically stuck to his well-honed shtick, and my friend held his own very well. Still, when the apologist can simply say, "Well this is how we view this, and I think it is reasonable," then everything boils down to how people perceive the performance of the relative parties. Most people go into and leave them with the same set of views. On the rare occasion a believer will admit that they discovered their belief was not so well founded after all.

And, as I said, this is a best case scenario. With the Mopologists, they have really crummy arguments, but they are really adept at slinging the BS and insults. Their target audience is desperate to believe that what they have to say is true. NHM and all that nonsense. I can't see any compelling reason to believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead, so you won't find me arguing that anyone should believe in the existence of a guy called Nephi or Moroni. And these days I have as much interest in arguing with people who believe in the historicity in Nephi as I have in arguing with people who believe in vaccine conspiracies and the like. The redeeming value of most religious fictions is that their aims are often noble and their polite communities keep their adherents from going off the deep end. Therein lie the chief differences between religion and conspiracy theories: the quest for respectability and the desire to protect the status quo.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Dr Moore »

On topic of the paper itself: man, apologists have sure found creative ways of seeing impressive things that aren’t all that impressive. Alma reads like a sermon on faith. I bet that’s because Joseph heard just such a sermon on faith, somewhere.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Moore wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 6:08 pm
On topic of the paper itself: man, apologists have sure found creative ways of seeing impressive things that aren’t all that impressive. Alma reads like a sermon on faith. I bet that’s because Joseph heard just such a sermon on faith, somewhere.
LOL. Yep. So true. But, then, so much average literary interpretation is about helping people appreciate a piece of writing more. Interpretations are often as much about the interpreter as they are the literature they interpret.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Symmachus »

Dr Moore wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 6:08 pm
On topic of the paper itself: man, apologists have sure found creative ways of seeing impressive things that aren’t all that impressive. Alma reads like a sermon on faith. I bet that’s because Joseph heard just such a sermon on faith, somewhere.
Yes, I'm trying to read Ostler's very long review of a work that attempts to constructs a coherent exposition of whatever it is that Alma 30-42 says. I'm inclined to agree with Dr. Moore, but even clichéd sermonizing can have a stable worldview to present and argue to an audience, so I can easily agree with our esteemed Reverend, as well. Without a deep knowledge of Alma or New York sermonizing in the 1820s, I offer only a few observations on Ostler's review.

First, this jumped out at me:
Blake Ostler wrote:There is not even a hint of expertise or discussion of ancient context — or any context beyond the text for that matter. All of the reviews of the books in this series should be called: “A Review of Texts Without Context.” Or perhaps we should call them textum solus. There is no attempt to situate the text in space and time beyond what the text says self-referentially.
Isn't this the guy who claimed to have read all of Saint Thomas's Summa in Latin over a summer? I'm sure he read the words, but this makes me wonder whether he understood any of them, because "textum solus" is the kind of mistake a student in his/her first few weeks of Latin would make. Not first-year, not first-semester but first few weeks. It should be solus textus, and he means this as analogous to sola scriptura, which is good Latin: the noun-adjective pair linked by gender agreement, and the adjective of size/quantity comes before the noun (this would be the case even in Italian—solo testo—which I assume to be the foreign language Ostler knows best as a former missionary there). Not just peer review but the informed eye of a competent editor would have seen this.
Ostler wrote:Wrathall does a marvelous job of clarifying what is at issue so that we can see the genius of Alma’s position. He begins by defining terms and making key distinctions. A state of justice is a situation in which each receives what he or she deserves (96). In contrast to the state of justice that is the goal of the law, Wrathall defines a just act: A just act is an action where person A gives to person B what B deserves and in which A is motivated by a desire to produce a state of justice (97). In contrast to both a just state and a just act is a merciful act: A merciful act is an action whereby A relieves person B’s suffering without regard to what B deserves, and A is motivated by compassion to relieve B’s suffering (97). Thus, merciful acts are in direct contravention of just acts and destroy a state of justice.
Wow, this is remarkably like the classical definition of justice going back to Cicero, in turn derived from certain assumptions of Stoicism. The great and sadly much forgotten Roman jurist (and murdered praetorian prefect) Ulpian formulated it best:
Domitius Ulpianus, iuris peritissimus wrote:Iustitia est constans et perpetua voluntas ius suum cuique tribuendi. ("justice is the will firmly and continually to render to each what they deserve")
In one of his books of rules, quoted in Justinian's digest, we also find:
Domitius Ulpianus, iuris peritissimus wrote:Iuris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere ("the principles of justice are these: to live honorably, not to harm another, to render to each what they deserve")
This is utterly unlike anything you will find in Biblical law or any legal system of the ancient near east, though it does look a lot like Wrathall's reading of Alma, as relayed by Ostler. In fact, while you can find parts of this scattered in Plato, you won't even find this sort of encapsulation in Greek discussions of what justice is, let alone in Greek law. Law was an area where Romans truly were the innovators—for obvious reasons! This kind understanding of justice arose out of the courts of the praetor—Ulpian even wrote a commentary on the praetor's Edict—and the provincial governors, who had to deal with the rights of Roman citizens against the claims of provincials in light of Roman conceptions of natural law and especially their notion of the "law of nations" (the ius gentium, which was, basically, the general assemblage of customs common to any human society) and the "civil law" (the ius civile, or the set of laws particular to a given polity, whether it be Rome or some other city).

Now, the reason I mention all this is because it was the peculiar confluence of the Roman legal tradition, the influence of stoic ideas about nature, and the circumstances attendant to managing and governing in empire from the third century BCE onward that necessitated a meta-theory of justice that would be workable in practice. You didn't need that in a Greek city-state, where statutes and votes decided cases, and you certainly didn't need it in the near eastern petty monarchies of the near east, to say nothing of conquest state of Assyria.

So, assuming Wrathall is correct, how did this kind of thinking get in the Book of Mormon? We can see how it arose out of circumstances unique to Rome but not to ancient Costa Rica, at least to judging from the Book of Mormon. How is it possible, then, that the Nephites became part of the natural law tradition? Did an ancestor of Hagoth build ships that sent promising young Nephite scribes to study with Publius Mucius Scaevola in Rome?

Ostler insists on tackling the empirical questions, so let's get some goddamn empirical answers on this one.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

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Symmachus wrote:Isn't this the guy who claimed to have read all of Saint Thomas's Summa in Latin over a summer? I'm sure he read the words, but this makes me wonder whether he understood any of them, because "textum solus" is the kind of mistake a student in his/her first few weeks of Latin would make. Not first-year, not first-semester but first few weeks. It should be solus textus, and he means this as analogous to sola scriptura, which is good Latin:
How embarrassing! Lol!
Symmachus wrote: This is utterly unlike anything you will find in Biblical law or any legal system of the ancient near east, though it does look a lot like Wrathall's reading of Alma, as relayed by Ostler.
Yeah, it looks like we've got a great start to the debate. It's so good, that I predict it will end right here.

Since Symmachus took one for the team and actually read it -- I don't read Interpreter much anymore, I judge based on the politics in the abstract -- I felt guilty and read portions of it.

I want my money back. I took a long breath and prepared myself for the deep dive, but no water in the pool.

The title is "An Ingenious and Inspiring Literary Analysis of Alma 30–42". What counts as a "literary analysis" these days? I'd be surprised if there's a difference between Wrathall's explanation (per Blake, anyway) and Bruce R's.
His reading of Alma teases out insights not previously recognized and not easily discovered regarding belief
I must have missed the examples. There was no "teasing". Just lists of premises and conclusions. No phenomenology or anything. I guess you can say carefully reading something line by line is a "close reading" but you can't say "close reading" in relation to anything that says "Martin Heidegger" in it without giving the wrong impression if there's no phenomenology or other kind of unconventional interpretation. Maybe something got lost in translation, but the premise-conclusion stuff was apparently quoted straight from Wrathall.

I thought this was cute:
No, Alma actually solves the Gettier problems by showing that we know that the soft heart is a properly functioning faculty because it is fecund in generating expanded understanding of matters,
Sure, buddy. solved. E. Gettier must have had a heart of stone to miss it. But wow, A prophet from the ancient world solving problems to be posed a couple thousand years in the future.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by toon »

I’m having a difficult time getting past the pretentiousness of “oeuvre (body of work).”
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Doctor Scratch »

toon wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 3:16 am
I’m having a difficult time getting past the pretentiousness of “oeuvre (body of work).”
Yeah: I noticed that. Was that Ostler's doing? Or did an editor stick that in there? Perhaps to mock him? And I hate to say this, but somebody should advise him to use a different picture for his author photo. It looks like the tip of his nose is actually glowing, or like he just dipped it into a ramekin (small pleated dish used for making creme brûlée) of fry sauce.
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Re: Blake Ostler in Interpreter: "the Maxwell Institute is a pale reflection of its predecessor."

Post by Symmachus »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 2:10 am
Blake Ostler wrote:No, Alma actually solves the Gettier problems by showing that we know that the soft heart is a properly functioning faculty because it is fecund in generating expanded understanding of matters,
Sure, buddy. solved. E. Gettier must have had a heart of stone to miss it. But wow, A prophet from the ancient world solving problems to be posed a couple thousand years in the future.
:lol:

I enjoy the awkward diction here (generating expanded understanding? One could expand an already existent level of understanding or generate a new understanding, I suppose, but generating an expanded one doesn't make any sense).

My favorite:
A Very Stable Genius wrote:Wrathall ingeniously shows that Alma resolves the tension by insisting on maintaining the tension but distinguishing between God’s purposes and the purposes of the function of the law.
So, he resolves the tension by maintaining the tension. That is ingenious, though I can't say it is all together inspiring.
toon wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 3:16 am
I’m having a difficult time getting past the pretentiousness of “oeuvre (body of work).”
Yes, it was a bit too "on the nose," as our dear Doctor Scratch might put it.
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