The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

[_Tobin]

Or, we can accept the text of the Book of Mormon when it says the Lamanites were cursed with a dark skin. It's easy to change the meaning of the Book of Mormon when evidence emerges that challenges the plain reading of the text. You can do it with pretty much anything. Star Wars and Star Trek fans do it all the time when someone points out a blooper with the science, they come up with a plausible explanation that makes sense and satisfy their need for a fictional universe free from writers errors. Apologists do the same thing with the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham when the obvious goofs are pointed out.

Or you and I could be wrong and the Book of Mormon does have a basis in fact. If one day the gold plates show up, I'm willing to admit it is not fiction. I think you would have more trouble dealing with that possible reality.

[_Chap]

... you and I could be wrong and the Book of Mormon does have a basis in fact. If one day the gold plates show up, I'm willing to admit it is not fiction. I think you will have more trouble dealing with that possible reality.

You and I could be wrong, and pigs might be able to fly. If one day a pig flies by my window, I'm willing to accept that the stories of flying pigs are not fiction. I think you will have more trouble dealing with that possible reality.

See? If a frank impossibility was to happen. you'd look really dumb, and I'd look really smart!!!!

So, that means you're sorta' dumb now, hey??? And I'm like, a lot smarter, counta' if a flying pig turned up I could say "Neener neener! Told you so!".

Yes, Tobin's post was really that stupid. And, sadly, this rhetorical trope is one he keeps on and on using.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Or you and I could be wrong and the Book of Mormon does have a basis in fact. If one day the gold plates show up, I'm willing to admit it is not fiction. I think you would have more trouble dealing with that possible reality.

Tobin, I wish you'd stick to talking about aliens. You're so much more interesting when you talk about aliens.

[_Themis]

The fact of the matter is we KNOW human-beings have been present continuously on the North and South American continents for over the past 10 thousand years. It is a simple fact that IF the Book of Mormon has a historical basis, THERE WERE others here when the Lehites arrived. There is no other realistic view of the Book of Mormon than that. Mormon critics attempt to discredit the Book of Mormon by claiming it doesn't mention these others. However, I really don't think there is any other realistic way to account for the division of the Lehites into Nephites and Lamanites without intermarriage with "darker" skinned peoples obviously already here.

Adding IF doesn't do anything to help here. We could add IF to anything we want like Bigfoot, crop circles, Leprechauns, etc. So what? The idea here is to figure out if something like the Book of Mormon is made up or not. So we have to see what the text says. Reality is apologists have been asked to show where the Book of Mormon says others and have never done so. The only others mentioned by the text come from one of the three groups said to have arrived from the Old world. The text fits into the world of a global flood. Why do you think so many members, especially in the past, believed the America's were devoid of any humans when the jaredites arrived in the Book of Mormon story. It's just another big piece of evidence that supports Joseph having made the story up. IF's do nothing. Maybe all those Bigfoot sightings really were a Bigfoot IF Bigfoot really exists.

[_Tobin]

Adding IF doesn't do anything to help here. We could add IF to anything we want like Bigfoot, crop circles, Leprechauns, etc. So what? The idea here is to figure out if something like the Book of Mormon is made up or not. So we have to see what the text says. Reality is apologists have been asked to show where the Book of Mormon says others and have never done so. The only others mentioned by the text come from one of the three groups said to have arrived from the Old world. The text fits into the world of a global flood. Why do you think so many members, especially in the past, believed the America's were devoid of any humans when the jaredites arrived in the Book of Mormon story. It's just another big piece of evidence that supports Joseph having made the story up. IF's do nothing. Maybe all those Bigfoot sightings really were a Bigfoot IF Bigfoot really exists.

Actually, IF has a lot to do with the Book of Mormon. After all, it is all based on the premise of IF THERE IS A GOD (or more appropriately god-like beings). The Lehites (and Jaredites) could not have possibly come to the Americas unless that IF is an acceptable possibility. Otherwise, there is really nothing for you to discuss here.

[_Themis]

Adding IF doesn't do anything to help here. We could add IF to anything we want like Bigfoot, crop circles, Leprechauns, etc. So what? The idea here is to figure out if something like the Book of Mormon is made up or not. So we have to see what the text says. Reality is apologists have been asked to show where the Book of Mormon says others and have never done so. The only others mentioned by the text come from one of the three groups said to have arrived from the Old world. The text fits into the world of a global flood. Why do you think so many members, especially in the past, believed the America's were devoid of any humans when the jaredites arrived in the Book of Mormon story. It's just another big piece of evidence that supports Joseph having made the story up. IF's do nothing. Maybe all those Bigfoot sightings really were a Bigfoot IF Bigfoot really exists.

Actually, IF has a lot to do with the Book of Mormon. After all, it is all based on the premise of IF THERE IS A GOD (or more appropriately god-like beings). The Lehites (and Jaredites) could not have possibly come to the Americas unless that IF is an acceptable possibility. Otherwise, there is really nothing for you to discuss here.

IF is not the discussion. Like I said, I can make up an IF for anything.The discussion is about whether something is true. You are just stating the obvious about any IF. IF God exists and IF the JW are his church then we must be JW to be saved. So what? This is just stating the obvious if/then and does nothing to answer the real questions about whether God exists and whether JW is God's church. If the Book of Mormon has a basis in fact then Joseph really did translate gold Plates. So what? No one is arguing against an IF because it is just an obvious statement of if/then. The real discussion is about whether the Book of Mormon has any facts to support it, not about if it has a basis in fact. Why not join the real discussion about whether the text actually mentions others or not?

[_grindael]

I noticed that faqs in listing his evidence that the Book of Mormon does speak of "others" besides the descendants of Lehi/Jared/Mulekites only posts links to opinions. He doesn't actually quote a verse from the actual Book of Mormon. Why is that?

[Guest]

IF is not the discussion. Like I said, I can make up an IF for anything.The discussion is about whether something is true. You are just stating the obvious about any IF. IF God exists and IF the JW are his church then we must be JW to be saved. So what? This is just stating the obvious if/then and does nothing to answer the real questions about whether God exists and whether JW is God's church. If the Book of Mormon has a basis in fact then Joseph really did translate gold Plates. So what? No one is arguing against an IF because it is just an obvious statement of if/then. The real discussion is about whether the Book of Mormon has any facts to support it, not about if it has a basis in fact. Why not join the real discussion about whether the text actually mentions others or not?

Yes, we are discussing whether something is true. But we really can't discuss that unless we decide IF, or more appropriately, whether the assumptions we are making have a reasonable basis. And of course you can make any assumption you wish. That isn't my point. My point is whether we can agree that our assumptions are reasonable and thereby possibly true.

Now, the question you asked is does the Book of Mormon have facts or more appropriately, is it possible it is true? That depends on whether you agree with the assumptions. The first assumption we have to deal with is whether god-like beings exist. Now, you might ask do we have facts that God or god-like beings exist? Obviously the answer is no. However, is it reasonably likely that such beings do exist in our universe? Given how you come down on that, then we can discuss whether is likely they could visit our world, teach (and give) our species instructions and technology and assist them in crossing oceans and colonize new areas and so on.

So it should be clear to you by now the assumptions we make and consider reasonable are very important to how we view the world and how we determine what may or may not be true.

[_canpakes]

"Others"

It's certainly strange how 'others' are the only folks who ever left any real evidence behind of their existence.

[Guest]

Actually, IF has a lot to do with the Book of Mormon. After all, it is all based on the premise of IF THERE IS A GOD (or more appropriately god-like beings). The Lehites (and Jaredites) could not have possibly come to the Americas unless that IF is an acceptable possibility. Otherwise, there is really nothing for you to discuss here.

Tobin, the problem with hypothetical speculation is that for every "IF" there's an "IF NOT" that cancels it out.

Now, the question you asked is does the Book of Mormon have facts or more appropriately, is it possible it is true? That depends on whether you agree with the assumptions. The first assumption we have to deal with is whether god-like beings exist. Now, you might ask do we have facts that God or god-like beings exist? Obviously the answer is no. However, is it reasonably likely that such beings do exist in our universe? Given how you come down on that, then we can discuss whether is likely they could visit our world, teach (and give) our species instructions and technology and assist them in crossing oceans and colonize new areas and so on.

So it should be clear to you by now the assumptions we make and consider reasonable are very important to how we view the world and how we determine what may or may not be true.

See above.