Willard Richards account of Carthage Jail

[_hagoth7]

Grindael,

One thing I don't quite follow is why you put "mistaken" in quotes. I disagreed with you, but didn't call you "mistaken" (unless the user name "Just Me" is also used by you).

Best wishes.

[_grindael]

Grindael,

One thing I don't quite follow is why you put "mistaken" in quotes. I disagreed with you, but didn't call you "mistaken" (unless the user name "Just Me" is also used by you).

Best wishes.

And I was answering the Just Me comment (which I quoted), and so your follow ups to that reply suggested otherwise to me. Perhaps it would have been better stated, "Just Me was not mistaken".

[_hagoth7]

Perhaps it would have been better stated, "Just Me was not mistaken".

But why? I actually believe Just Me was mistaken.

To retread that tire, he/she said: "[Joseph] didn't believe he was going to die. He was hoping to have his army come rescue him."

I believe Just Me is mistaken in both of those claims.

I believe Joseph knew his time was up, based on a number of his statements, as recorded by others.

And there is not a single scrap of reliable evidence, to my knowledge, that demonstrates Joseph had either commanded or invited the Legion to come rescue him at Carthage Jail. If some are to argue that he did make such a request, what then? Are they claiming the Legion somehow just refused or neglected to request him?

In response to "Just Me"'s assertion that Joseph hoped to be saved by the Legion, or that he even called on them to come rescue him, you may be aware of this article:

http://www.josephsmithjr.org/cms/faq/16 ... -all-costs

And I've already referred to this article, but have yet to hear a cogent reply to it:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/M ... cue_Joseph

I am interested in your response. (Or in the response of any others who consider either of these articles.)

Based on the above, what actual basis does Just Me have for claiming Joseph hoped to be rescued by the Nauvoo Legion at Carthage Jail?

Also for the claim that Joseph didn't believe in his own pending martyrdom, what of things like John Taylor's statement from Nauvoo in 1844?
"When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.”

That statement was published in Nauvoo in the 1844 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... 1844?p=447

Of the 1844 edition, the Joseph Smith Papers site says: when the 1844 edition "was first available to the public is unknown, but the volume was in use soon after its release: it was cited in the 2 September 1844 issue of Times and Seasons, and Parley P. Pratt quoted from it at a meeting on 8 September 1844." So that statement, among several others, reflects what was generally understood in Nauvoo about Joseph's attitude towards his death, an understanding that is documented very shortly after the events at Carthage Jail.

Joseph taught repeatedly that the Restoration was in fulfillment of promises in the book of Daniel, and in the book of Revelation, both in the Bible. On a similar note, tens of thousands of non-LDS people in his day believed and taught, based on the timelines in those same two books, that Bible prophecy was going to be fulfilled in 1844. It was front-page news. Those people disagreed on what to expect in that year, but they all expected it to be something big. But then nothing happened that they were willing to recognize as the fulfillment of prophecy.

I believe the martyrdom of two prophets of God was the overlooked fulfillment of those timelines.

As John Taylor said of Joseph and Hyrum in 1844: their martyrdom "is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations." He says "their innocent blood" is "with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw", referring to the book of Revelation.

Joseph had earlier said that the book of Revelation was one of the plainest books to understand. And when preachers arrived in Nauvoo with the claims that Bible prophecy in Daniel and Revelation was going to be fulfilled in the 1840's through the return of Jesus, Joseph surrendered the floor to let them share their message. When they were done, he added that they were mistaken in their interpretation, and would be disappointed. In another setting, he also said their movement's mistaken expectation was due to an errant translation of the Bible.

As 1844 approached, I believe he knew that his time was running out. As Joseph had been assured by God earlier, in another prison, his time was known and appointed. "Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever." Later he said: "Some have supposed that Brother Joseph could not die; but this is a mistake: it is true there have been times when I have had the promise of my life to accomplish such and such things, but, having now accomplished those things, I have not at present any lease of my life, I am as liable to die as other men." History of the Church 4:587

Again, I firmly believe Joseph and Hyrum died at the time appointed.

[_hagoth7]

No, I'm not biased. I don't need or want to be.

Well, neither of us wants to be biased. But up until this discussion, I had never come across anyone who claimed to be 100% objective. This is an interesting first.

[_Tobin]

No, I'm not biased. I don't need or want to be.

Well, neither of us wants to be biased. But up until this discussion, I had never come across anyone who claimed to be 100% objective. This is an interesting first.

grindael suffers under many delusions. That is just one of them.

[_grindael]

No, I'm not biased. I don't need or want to be.

Well, neither of us wants to be biased. But up until this discussion, I had never come across anyone who claimed to be 100% objective. This is an interesting first.

I didn't claim to be 100% objective. Bias:

noun
1.
a particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned: illegal bias against older job applicants; the magazine’s bias toward art rather than photography; our strong bias in favor of the idea.

You can claim to have a tendency to be unreasonable as much as you want. I'm not. I've produced the evidence here. Bias had nothing to do with it. It's an easy out for those who can't back up what they say with facts. Like TROLLBIN.

[_grindael]

grindael suffers under many delusions. That is just one of them.

Once again, TROLLBIN does what he does best... TROLLS...

[_grindael]

As Dan Vogel recently said,

Learning to drive a forklift, which turns with rear wheels opposite of a car, is not difficult. The problem is when you add the reflex of keeping balance. I think overcoming bias is more like the former than the latter. Those who emphasize the latter, it usually means they are trying to argue for the acceptance some outlandish proposition that can’t win by force of argument alone. Imagine if the inventor of the bike engineered the bicycle like in the above experiment and ignored the brains natural operation and expected everyone to adapt to his invention, we would have to conclude he was an idiot. Imagine that he argued that we were all just biased, pointed to a few exceptional people who learned to use it, and suggested that we were depriving ourselves of an excellent mode of travel because were too narrow minded. http://www.dailyliked.net/backwards-brain-bicycle/

What Dan lays out here is exactly what you are trying to do. I don't buy it. You lost the argument, now you want to try and smear the person that won it.

[_grindael]

Perhaps it would have been better stated, "Just Me was not mistaken".
But why? I actually believe Just Me was mistaken. To retread that tire, he/she said: "[Joseph] didn't believe he was going to die. He was hoping to have his army come rescue him."

I believe Just Me is mistaken in both of those claims. I believe Joseph knew his time was up, based on a number of his statements, as recorded by others.

After the fact. This is about Jo getting out of Carthage alive. Joseph's OWN statements dictated by him at the time, tell a different story. Jo to Emma, June 25,

DEAR EMMA.—I have had an interview with Governor Ford, and he treats us honorably. Myself and Hyrum have been again arrested for treason because we called out the Nauvoo Legion; but when the truth comes out we have nothing to fear. We all feel calm and composed.

Jo to Gov. Ford, June 26,

We have been committed under a false mittimus, and consequently the proceedings are illegal, and we desire the time may be hastened when all things shall be made right, and we relieved from this imprisonment.

Jo to Lawyer, June 26,

SIRS,—Constable Bettisworth called a little while since, and wanted to come in, the guard would not [allow it]. We have since learned that he wanted to take us before the magistrate, and we have since learned that there is some excitement because we did not go, and we wish to see you without delay. We are informed that Dr. Foster has said that they can do nothing with us, only by powder and ball, as we have done nothing against the law.

A rumor. No evidence that Foster said it. There were lots of rumors floating around, and like I said above, it was COMMON SENSE that Joseph knew he was going into a dangerous situation. But this does not mean that he claimed that Carthage was the END of his mission.

William Clayton letter, June 26,

All is peace in Nauvoo. Many threats keep coming that the mob are determined to attack the city in your absence, but we have no fears.

With fervency and true friendship, I remain yours eternally,WILLIAM CLAYTON.

Jo to Emma, letter, June 27,

DEAR EMMA.—The Governor continues his courtesies, and permits us to see our friends. We hear this morning that the Governor will not go down with his troops today to Nauvoo, as we anticipated last evening; but if he does come down with his troops you will be protected; and I want you to tell Brother Dunham to instruct the people to stay at home and attend to their own business, and let there be no groups or gathering together, unless by permission of the Governor, they are called together to receive communications from the Governor, which would please our people, but let the Governor direct.

Brother Dunham of course will obey the orders of the government officers, and render them the assistance they require. There is no danger of any extermination order. Should there be a mutiny among the troops (which we do not anticipate, excitement is abating) a part will remain loyal and stand for the defense of the state and our rights.

There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive, but I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety.
JOSEPH SMITH.

P. S.—Dear Emma, I am very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified, and have done the best that could be done. Give my love to the children and all my friends, Mr. Brewer, and all who inquire after me; and as for treason, I know that I have not committed any, and they cannot prove anything of the kind, so you need not have any fears that anything can happen to us on that account. May God bless you all. Amen.

Jo here, claims IN A LETTER dictated by him that he does not fear violence against him at Carthage. This is PROOF in writing. Much ado is made of "resigned to my lot", but that obviously means being in jail. All the other accounts are word of mouth AFTER THE FACT. Postscript to Emma,

P. S.—20 minutes to 10.—I just learn that the Governor is about to disband his troops, all but a guard to protect us and the peace, and [p.611] come himself to Nauvoo and deliver a speech to the people. This is right as I suppose. He afterwards wrote a few lines with his own hand, which were not copied.

Jo letter to his lawyer, nothing about his life ending,

CARTHAGE JAIL, June 27th, 1844.

Lawyer Browning:—

SIR,—Myself and brother Hyrum are in jail on charge of treason, to come up for examination on Saturday morning, 29th inst., and we request your professional services at that time, on our defense, without fail.

Most respectfully, your servant,
JOSEPH SMITH.

P. S.—There is no cause of action, for we have not been guilty of any crime, neither is there any just cause of suspicion against us; but certain circumstances make your attendance very necessary.
J. S.

Why plan for a defense if you knew you were going to die right then and there? Seems pretty silly doesn't it? The History of the Church is full of affidavits about the threats to Jo and his claims that he was going to die in Carthage, but they were all made in the 1850's. Taylor's account was made after Joseph died. I'm not denying there were threats against Jo, there had been FOR YEARS. But a specific PROPHECY that Jo made that he was going to die at Carthage and that he BELIEVED HIS TIME WAS UP? Nope. The actual contemporary evidence doesn't show it.

And there is not a single scrap of reliable evidence, to my knowledge, that demonstrates Joseph had either commanded or invited the Legion to come rescue him at Carthage Jail. If some are to argue that he did make such a request, what then? Are they claiming the Legion somehow just refused or neglected to request him?

In response to "Just Me"'s assertion that Joseph hoped to be saved by the Legion, or that he even called on them to come rescue him, you may be aware of this article ... And I've already referred to this article, but have yet to hear a cogent reply to it. I am interested in your response. (Or in the response of any others who consider either of these articles.) Based on the above, what actual basis does Just Me have for claiming Joseph hoped to be rescued by the Nauvoo Legion at Carthage Jail?

This is called a red herring. I wasn't arguing about Jonathan Dunham being contacted by Joseph to rescue him, but that the LEGION COULD HAVE RESCUED HIM. This is what I claimed that you were mistaken about. My take on that? I don't see any evidence to support it. But that doesn't change my argument. Also, Just Me is not mistaken that there is no credible evidence from Joseph Smith that he claimed that his mission was over when he went to Carthage or that he "prophesied" his death there. The evidence shows that he didn't think he was going to die there.

Also for the claim that Joseph didn't believe in his own pending martyrdom, what of things like John Taylor's statement from Nauvoo in 1844? "When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.”

Written well after the fact. Not credible, considering Jo's own letters out of Carthage. What Jo did prophecy about was far different:

1843: “I defy all the world to destroy the work of God; and I prophesy they never will have power to kill me till my work is accomplished, and I am ready to die.”

1844: “God will always protect me until my mission is fulfilled.”

If Joseph knew he was going to die at Carthage why then, run for President in 1844? Why set all that up? He obviously wasn't ready to die if he was going to run for President. Smith had CLAIMED to "accomplish" his work way back in the 1830's:

After singing and prayer I gave the council such instruction in relation to their high calling, as would enable them to proceed to minister in their office agreeably to the pattern heretofore given; read the revelation on the subject; and told them that if I should now be taken away, I had accomplished the great work the Lord had laid before me, and that which I had desired of the Lord; and that I had done my duty in organizing the High council, through which council the will of the Lord might be known on all important occasions, in the buied on the third should be confirmed in their appointments. I then ordained David Whitmer, president, and W. W. Phelps and John Whitmer assistants; and their twelve coucilors... (Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.1109).

If Jo had really accomplished his work then, why was it claimed that he was trying to get all the work done in the 1840's? The "Last Charge" to the 12 comes to mind here. This then is a blatant contradiction. Smith constantly made statements like this. In April of 1842 he claimed,

Some have supposed that Brother Joseph could not die; but this is a mistake: it is true there have been times when I have had the promise of my life to accomplish such and such things, but, having now accomplished those things, I have not at present any lease of my life, I am as liable to die as other men. men. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, p.587).

This was two years BEFORE Smith supposedly gave all the "keys" to the 12. Then, Smith reversed himself four months later in front of the Relief Society:

the Lord [p.140] Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the Saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life, and so firmly established the dispensation of the fullness of the priesthood in the last days, that all the powers of earth and hell can never prevail against it. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.140)

If Smith could flip flop like this in 1842, why would anyone believe that he could not do so in 1844? You want to claim that Smith knew ahead of time all that was going to transpire with him, but these very quotes show that to be wishful thinking. The fact is, his followers simply made Smith's generalized statements read whatever they wanted to after his death. I've shown this to be a fact in relation to his bogus "Rocky Mountain Prophecy". What transpired in those four months in 1842? Do you know? I have recommended this once in this thread, and I do so again. Read the recently released "Book of the Law of the Lord", especially during those months and after from 1842. 1844 was a total replay of what happened then. The Missourians were after Smith, they tried to extradite him back to Missouri for treason and the murder of Boggs. He went into hiding, and was going to flee to the "Pine Country" of Iowa. http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... lord&p=151

He set it all up. He made statements about his death (as you see above for April). He was going to take Emma and the children with him because, he claimed, he didn't trust her around other men. But the threat of the Missourians faded when they could not get the Gov. of Illinois to back them in the extradition. Joseph always spoke from positions of power or weakness and that predicated what he would say. Here he is writing to Emma claiming he was predisposed to flee to the "Pine Country" with Emma, but wouldn't go if she did not. That is why he turned back in 1844. It had always been his sentiment. http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... lord&p=190 Emma wrote him back that she felt confident that he could be protected in Nauvoo. She did this again in 1844. She was wrong, but Smith wouldn't leave without her. Read the entries in 1842. It gives a lot of perspective on what happened in 1844. I've read them all.

Smith had Wilson Law, his brother William who were helping to protect him. He really had none of that in 1844. He had an active band of "dissenters" who wanted to overthrow him. He was being plagued from within and without. He survived the extradition attempt of 1842 and so his attitude changed, he was now once again indestructible. But as events closed in around him, he realized that he was vulnerable as anyone in that situation would in 1844. Then it was back to... well, I may be killed now.

Of the 1844 edition, the Joseph Smith Papers site says: when the 1844 edition "was first available to the public is unknown, but the volume was in use soon after its release: it was cited in the 2 September 1844 issue of Times and Seasons, and Parley P. Pratt quoted from it at a meeting on 8 September 1844." So that statement, among several others, reflects what was generally understood in Nauvoo about Joseph's attitude towards his death, an understanding that is documented very shortly after the events at Carthage Jail.

Doesn't discount what he actually DICTATED in letters during his stay at the jail.

Joseph taught repeatedly that the Restoration was in fulfillment of promises in the book of Daniel, and in the book of Revelation, both in the Bible. On a similar note, tens of thousands of non-LDS people in his day believed and taught, based on the timelines in those same two books, that Bible prophecy was going to be fulfilled in 1844. It was front-page news. Those people disagreed on what to expect in that year, but they all expected it to be something big. But then nothing happened that they were willing to recognize as the fulfillment of prophecy.

Yes, and Jo himself gave the date of 1890-91 and what happened? Nothing.

I believe the martyrdom of two prophets of God was the overlooked fulfillment of those timelines.

Yes, and that is why his followers made the statements they did after his death. Doesn't mean he actually said them.

As John Taylor said of Joseph and Hyrum in 1844: their martyrdom "is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations." He says "their innocent blood" is "with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw", referring to the book of Revelation.

Nice rhetoric but that is all it is. They were hardly "innocent" of the crimes they were accused of. And the lying and false prophecies! The "hearts of honest men" aren't too impressed with that.

Joseph had earlier said that the book of Revelation was one of the plainest books to understand. And when preachers arrived in Nauvoo with the claims that Bible prophecy in Daniel and Revelation was going to be fulfilled in the 1840's through the return of Jesus, Joseph surrendered the floor to let them share their message. When they were done, he added that they were mistaken in their interpretation, and would be disappointed. In another setting, he also said their movement's mistaken expectation was due to an errant translation of the Bible.

For that year, yes. Jo had his own interpretation which was also wrong.

As 1844 approached, I believe he knew that his time was running out. As Joseph had been assured by God earlier, in another prison, his time was known and appointed. "Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever." Later he said: "Some have supposed that Brother Joseph could not die; but this is a mistake: it is true there have been times when I have had the promise of my life to accomplish such and such things, but, having now accomplished those things, I have not at present any lease of my life, I am as liable to die as other men." History of the Church 4:587

Again, you are not looking at the whole picture. You are using pieces to craft your own erroneous conclusion. First quote was from a Missouri Jail. Of course he didn't see how he was going to get out of that. (Bribary worked though). And the second quote I've shown the context of above. Only four months later, he reversed it.

Again, I firmly believe Joseph and Hyrum died at the time appointed.

You can believe what you want. That is the myth that his followers have propagated. Jo's plans for a Presidency, move to the west, his ordination as "King" and letters to Emma all say that this is .... mistaken.

[_hagoth7]

...What Dan lays out here is exactly what you are trying to do. I don't buy it. You lost the argument, now you want to try and smear the person that won it.

?!
1. As to losing the "argument", the part of the discussion I conceded to was that the Nauvoo Legion was more heavily armed after surrendering their state arms than I had previously thought. I actually appreciate the correction on that. That part of the discussion, though, is somewhat of a tangent.

2. The "argument", or discussion, is not "lost." It is just started. The main point of the discussion (at least where I entered into it back on May 11th) was Just Me's dual assertion that (i) Joseph hoped to be rescued by the Nauvoo Legion at Carthage Jail, and (ii) Joseph didn't believe he was going to die. I disagree with both of those assertions, and provided some initial evidence for consideration to explain why I disagree with Just Me.

3. I have absolutely no desire to "smear" you, and I apologize if you feel that's somehow what I've unintentionally done. I simply believe that everyone forms bias or partiality, at least to some degree along the way, because different people choose to give different weight to different scraps of evidence. So I don't buy into the assertion that the evidence somehow speaks for itself, because assessing and weighing evidence involves flawed human interpretation of some sort. I am convinced that flawed humans (which includes everyone) can interpret the same evidence differently without having to resort to calling one another names.