Botched Rescue in Boise

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_cinepro
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _cinepro »

consiglieri wrote:I have long found it a stretch to consider the LDS Church a "victim" in the Hofmann affair.


I have nothing against lawyers in general (my dad is one), but if you think about it, it is very odd for a lawyer to be chosen to head the Church history department. And even odder for that lawyer to feel the need to publish a book on the Church's involvement in the Hoffman affair. Obviously the book would be approached not from a historical standpoint, but from the standpoint of a lawyer defending a client. He viewed the other book as the prosecution's case against the Church, and his book is the defense.

Interestingly, I didn't get that feeling from his book on Mountain Meadows. For whatever reason, that book did not come off as a defense of the Church (the reason probably being that all involved recognized that there was no "defense" for the Church, and the best thing to do would just be to get the information out there).

But where is the follow up book?
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Res Ipsa »

cinepro wrote:
consiglieri wrote:I have long found it a stretch to consider the LDS Church a "victim" in the Hofmann affair.


I have nothing against lawyers in general (my dad is one), but if you think about it, it is very odd for a lawyer to be chosen to head the Church history department. And even odder for that lawyer to feel the need to publish a book on the Church's involvement in the Hoffman affair. Obviously the book would be approached not from a historical standpoint, but from the standpoint of a lawyer defending a client. He viewed the other book as the prosecution's case against the Church, and his book is the defense.

Interestingly, I didn't get that feeling from his book on Mountain Meadows. For whatever reason, that book did not come off as a defense of the Church (the reason probably being that all involved recognized that there was no "defense" for the Church, and the best thing to do would just be to get the information out there).

But where is the follow up book?


I have the same reaction. For some reason, this makes me think of Lee Strobel.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_cafe crema
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _cafe crema »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tobin wrote:Then are you saying we shouldn't sympathize with old, senile people that are taken advantage of by con-artists because they are easy marks? Personally, I don't see much of a difference between that and Hofmann taking advantage of the LDS Church. In fact, in many ways they are very much the same kind of thing.


No, if you actually think about what I wrote, you will hopefully realize that I most definitely did not say that.


More like politicians who are taken advantage of by someone purporting to have pictures of his night with a hooker?
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _mentalgymnast »

honorentheos wrote:Starting with Elder Oak's first quote, 1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I think the point Kishkumen made about the value of the historical context applies. Consider, for example, this scripture from the New Testament:

1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.


This raises quite a number of questions. Is the author here speaking to you as a 21st Century Mormon? Or to those in their own time? I suspect most Mormon's would agree there is an immediate audience intended here, but then tend to "liken the scriptures" to suggest there is applications for modern Bible readers.


No qualms with that.

honorentheos wrote:Thus the historical question: Has there ever been a time when established religion did not harbor the same feelings towards the inevitable cultural evolution and change at work in any social order? And wouldn't the same scriptures quoted by Oaks have application in a multitude of settings throughout history?


I think so.

honorentheos wrote:Could they be stripped of their Christian color and repainted with Islamic tones and be used within that culture just as legitimately? Or by GE to complain about Google?


Yes.

honorentheos wrote:What exactly is it that was said that isn't best seen as the eternal tug-of-war that takes place in human cultures?


Perhaps that the Son of God was to return to the earth as a resurrected being and take over the reigns of the 'kingdom' in the latter days/times.

What do you think about the preponderance of D&C scriptures that were used in the Boise Rescue? Most of them dealt specifically with what to look for in regards to the apostate conditions that are prevalent in some areas of the church today. Keys of the kingdom, authority residing in Joseph and the ordained leaders, callings to prophethood being known to and approved by the church through common consent, etc.

You focused on two New Testament scriptures as though these were the most important ones to look at?

I found the D&C scriptures to be directly applicable more so than the New Testament scriptures although, as you say, we might find inference and/or application in those also. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, and I'll stick to it, I think that Oaks and Turley followed a better game plan this time around. Stick to the restoration of authority, keys, and rightful prophethood/leadership. Anything else and they venture down rabbit holes in which there is no clear destination or ending that suits everyone.

Regards,
MG
_canpakes
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _canpakes »

mentalgymnast wrote:Perhaps that the Son of God was to return to the earth as a resurrected being and take over the reigns of the 'kingdom' in the latter days/times.

Imagine that. A thousand-year babysitting spree. One has to imagine why such a thing would be necessary.

If only we had folks that we could ask about these things, and who would not then refuse the request by invoking unsavory comparisons to jewelry and barnyard animals.
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

It won't be long before the Church has a Salt Lake City Rescue.

Some of you might find this interesting. There is a new guy in our ward and he's probably in his late 20s or early 30s, married, couple of kids, the exact age when religious fanaticism usually begins to hit its stride in Mormon culture.

He and his family are, clearly in my informed view, followers of Denver snuffer. I say this because of some comments he made, one of which was two weeks ago and one of which was last week.

Two weeks ago, there was some instruction on the renewal of covenants through the partaking of the Sacrament. The question was raised, "which covenant or covenants are renewed through the sacraments?"

The answer, we are taught, is the sacraments renews all covenants, from baptism up through the temple and even beyond.

This new brother raised his hand and commented as follows: "since the renewal of our baptismal covenant is so important, the most effective way to actually renew it is to be rebaptized as a show of our recommitment to Jesus Christ." This comment, of course, resulted in a gentle flurry of responses about why re-baptism is not necessary in the church. This brother again commented as follows: "why do you say that? The baptism is an eternal ordinance, but are we not commanded to be rebaptized as often as we need to recommit to Jesus?"

And that, my friends, is pure Denver snuffer...

And, last week, during the lesson on the role and the responsibilities of prophets, when we arrived at the inevitable part of the lesson about the prophet not being able to leave the Church astray, this new brother raised his hand and said, "The prophets have made serious mistakes, and that is why we need to remember that we worship Jesus Christ and not the prophet."

A flurry of responses followed...

And, yes, there were a couple of investigators with the missionaries there. I don't expect that we will ever see those investigators again.

So, we have a genuine follower of Denver snuffer in our ward. Demographically, we probably have several more who do a better job keeping their traps shut.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_robuchan
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _robuchan »

Listening to this. Turley talks about how when he was going to law school, he took a class in Greek language textual criticism of the New Testament and brought up an anecdote related to that class. He is a BYU law school grad. Do they teach anything like Greek language textual criticism of the New Testament at BYU?
_Kishkumen
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Kishkumen »

robuchan wrote:Listening to this. Turley talks about how when he was going to law school, he took a class in Greek language textual criticism of the New Testament and brought up an anecdote related to that class. He is a BYU law school grad. Do they teach anything like Greek language textual criticism of the New Testament at BYU?


It was probably taught by Jack Welch, who has an MA in Classics from Oxford. He gets into Biblical stuff.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_robuchan
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _robuchan »

Kishkumen wrote:
robuchan wrote:Listening to this. Turley talks about how when he was going to law school, he took a class in Greek language textual criticism of the New Testament and brought up an anecdote related to that class. He is a BYU law school grad. Do they teach anything like Greek language textual criticism of the New Testament at BYU?


It was probably taught by Jack Welch, who has an MA in Classics from Oxford. He gets into Biblical stuff.


I'm a little skeptical that textual criticism of New Testament is being taught at BYU at anything beyond a very superficial level, especially 30+ years ago when Turley would have been doing law school.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Kishkumen wrote:
[snip]

No, the real questions are these: Why care? Why sacrifice? The LDS Church offers less compelling reasons all the time. Many people figure this out right after baptism. The wonderful picture the missionaries presented (including lots of attention from fresh-faced teenage kids) evaporates when the reality of a dreary ward routine sinks in. The teachings are dry and repetitive. The aesthetic is soul destroying outside of a few old-timey hymns. There are lots of pointless, time-wasting meetings. Ideally you are culturally illiterate, white, conservative, and cisgender (or at least a preponderance of the aforementioned). Otherwise, chances are you will eventually either quit or embrace the religion as a Zen exercise of some kind.

I can't shake the hugely insightful post Symmachus published in December of 2014. It was so spot on. My wife and I have said it to each other repeatedly: It is one thing for the Church not to be true; what is truly damning is that it is miserable.
[Emphasis added]

I finally got around to reading some of Snuffer's talks. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Snuffer gives folks reasons for caring and sacrifice. Instead of paying tithing for fancy buildings, use it to take care of the poor. Don't be a cog in a big corporation -- organize small communities. And he does a very good job of making the scriptures speak to today's people and is pretty meticulous about using them to back up everything thing he says.

The problem with using scriptural warnings about apostasy against someone like Snuffer is that he can turn them around and apply them to the current LDS leadership. And the appeal to authority isn't going to set well with the more tea-party oriented of the LDS membership. The more the church looks like "big government," the more appealing Snuffer will be.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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