The Nahom Follies

[_EAllusion]

I think you misunderstand my point Chap. I'm not familiar with studies of ancient climate, geomorphology, or subsequent ecological patterns in Yemen. I don't even know enough to know how thoroughly that's been examined.

I do however know that there are meaningful shifts over thousand year timespans, therefore it is unwise to look at current conditions and simply project them into antiquity. DrW mentioned areas today that hold suitable Oasis-like environments, and it immediately occurred to me that the distribution of those environments may have shifted over time.

[_Sammy Jankins]

Was it infants on thrones who did the podcast on the level of infrastructure needed to build a ship as per the Nephi narrative? Needless to say, without divine intervention providing a bunch of the foundational dependencies, it would be impossible.

Example: Nephi smelt ore.... great, now where did the anvil he used come from?

Are you thinking of this Mormon Expression episode?

Episode 276: How to build a transoceanic vessel

[_SteelHead]

That's the one.

[_Kishkumen]

I think you misunderstand my point Chap. I'm not familiar with studies of ancient climate, geomorphology, or subsequent ecological patterns in Yemen. I don't even know enough to know how thoroughly that's been examined.

I do however know that there are meaningful shifts over thousand year timespans, therefore it is unwise to look at current conditions and simply project them into antiquity. DrW mentioned areas today that hold suitable Oasis-like environments, and it immediately occurred to me that the distribution of those environments may have shifted over time.

That is an important point.

[_Chap]

I think you misunderstand my point Chap. I'm not familiar with studies of ancient climate, geomorphology, or subsequent ecological patterns in Yemen. I don't even know enough to know how thoroughly that's been examined.

I do however know that there are meaningful shifts over thousand year timespans, therefore it is unwise to look at current conditions and simply project them into antiquity. DrW mentioned areas today that hold suitable Oasis-like environments, and it immediately occurred to me that the distribution of those environments may have shifted over time.

That is an important point.

Wow, yes! So it could really be Nahom.

You're saying there's a chance.

[_Chap]

Was it infants on thrones who did the podcast on the level of infrastructure needed to build a ship as per the Nephi narrative? Needless to say, without divine intervention providing a bunch of the foundational dependencies, it would be impossible.

Example: Nephi smelt ore.... great, now where did the anvil he used come from?

Are you thinking of this Mormon Expression episode?

Episode 276: How to build a transoceanic vessel

Really wonderful comments on that:

Orrin Dayne • 8 months ago

The panel was as entertaining and informative as ever on this one. It's a must listen.

But don't get too giddy that you have a smoking gun to share with your true-believing loved ones. As discussed in this episode, true believers often retreat to "Gods ways are not our ways," which would be natural here given that it's baked into the story at 1 Nephi 18:2 ("Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.").

I expect they would say the panel was explaining ship-building technology "after the manner of men," not after the manner that God showed to Nephi. Thus the impossibility of building a ship according to the manner of man, as discussed in this episode, merely manifests God's matchless mercy and power in showing Nephi a better way.

That said, the panel presented a compelling case that would require a substantial amount of head-burying-in-the-sand to ignore. Well done on this one.

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LordofDarkness Orrin Dayne • 8 months ago

Very true...although when you take everything from this podcast and apply it to the Jaredite story from the Book of Ether--which allegedly takes place around 2200 B.C.--it's even bat crap crazier. So three different sets of people (Jaredites, Nephi & family, and Mulekites) built boats, including wooden submarines, and made the transoceanic voyage?

These stories are one step removed from Jack and the Beanstalk.
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Megan Orrin Dayne • 8 months ago

I agree, however it still brings up a couple of questions.

First, what kind of miracle was this? As I see it, Nephi has four problems: information, material, manpower, and time. Now the first one we already know was miracled away - it says it in the text not only once, but multiple times. However, as the podcast points out, that's not nearly enough because the other three are still unresolved.

So in order for this to work, god has to have worked a whole series of miracles that addressed these issues, but that somehow go entirely unremarked in the book. And one of those miracles makes no sense at all - time. They've already spent 8 years wandering around in the wilderness. If there is some reason - which again isn't in the book - that they absolutely had to be in America by a certain year, then why not get them through the wilderness a lot more quickly and give Nephi six or seven more years to build the ship?

Now, although I think that 'after the manner of God' can be read as being part of the 'informational miracle', a reading that is supported by most of the rest of the text, there is one other interpretation. Rather than building the ship to god's design alone, you could read it as Nephi building the ship as though he were god, ie using godlike powers and abilities. Phew! Problem solved!

Except... it actually makes it far more difficult. Because although Nephi has been 'filled with the power of god' that lets him blast naughty brothers out of the way and things, he is still a physical, mortal being and therefore still constrained by the laws of physics. So in order for him to avoid the issues with space and time we either have to suppose that a) Nephi was translated and became a god for the space of time that he built the ship and then was un-godded somehow or b) god suspended those laws for the specific region around the ship building area which means that Mormon god, contrary to many apologists, is NOT constrained by universal laws. And notice, that both of these options are not mentioned at all, although Nephi has absolutely no trouble describing in detail other episodes when he is filled with the spirit or god does miraculous wondrous things. Instead he keeps emphasising the very physical nature of his ship-building, and talks about god giving him knowledge.

Which brings up my second question - what is the point of all of the extra miracles that have to be supposed in order for this to work? Because Nephi doesn't mention them, we have no discussion of how they might be a lesson. The family doesn't see them. There is no change of faith or discussion.

I suppose the apologist answer would be that it shows how god, after all we do, will make all things possible. But does it? I mean it doesn't SHOW anything at all, and further this isn't how god works, at least not for us. The only supportable miracle is the informational one which Mormons claim all the time (inspiration). Physical miracles, of the type-3 John was talking about, don't happen.

It just seems to me that trying to explain it all with miracles actually makes things worse!

[_SteelHead]

If God can drop a liahona on the tent step, surely he can drop a submarine on the beach.

Why does God need a starship? For the same reason he needs Nephi to build a bellows out of skins.

[_Chap]

If God can drop a liahona on the tent step, surely he can drop a submarine on the beach.

Why does God need a starship? For the same reason he needs Nephi to build a bellows out of skins.

I wonder if Nephi ever felt a bit like the guy in that 1998 film

The Truman Show

I am thinking of the dawning sense that 'This is all a set-up. It can't be real. Where did that Liahona thing come from? How come I have built an ocean-going ship all on my own? Hello? Is there anybody out there?'

[_mentalgymnast]

EA: I do however know that there are meaningful shifts over thousand year timespans, therefore it is unwise to look at current conditions and simply project them into antiquity. DrW mentioned areas today that hold suitable Oasis-like environments, and it immediately occurred to me that the distribution of those environments may have shifted over time.

Kish: That is an important point.

Chap Wow, yes! So it could really be Nahom.

You're saying there's a chance.

I think that we're visually looking more at Bountiful than Nahom.

Again, it's just another interesting thing we find in the Book of Mormon. A narrative that shows Lehi and Co. traveling in a pattern and through country with a NHM and a Bountiful in locations that can be interpreted to match with the real world. It seems as though at every turn we have Joseph taking this and taking that in order to put a cohesive Book of Mormon narrative together that in some ways can amaze us.

Regards,
MG

[_Chap]

EA: I do however know that there are meaningful shifts over thousand year timespans, therefore it is unwise to look at current conditions and simply project them into antiquity. DrW mentioned areas today that hold suitable Oasis-like environments, and it immediately occurred to me that the distribution of those environments may have shifted over time.

Kish: That is an important point.

Chap Wow, yes! So it could really be Nahom.

You're saying there's a chance.

I think that we're visually looking more at Bountiful than Nahom.

Again, it's just another interesting thing we find in the Book of Mormon. A narrative that shows Lehi and Co. traveling in a pattern and through country with a NHM and a Bountiful in locations that can be interpreted to match with the real world. It seems as though at every turn we have Joseph taking this and taking that in order to put a cohesive Book of Mormon narrative together that in some ways can amaze us.

Regards,
MG

To others, who come at this material without having been brought up to take it seriously, the sense of amazement has a very different origin.