The Nahom Follies

[_Fence Sitter]

So we are supposed to believe that somehow Lehi and Co had sufficient money or riches to purchase the lumber, that the lumber was of the type and quantity necessary for a transoceanic voyage, they were at a location where the material could be purchased and a location where a ship could be built and launched. Does it occur to anyone that the only possible location for such an endeavor is, oh I don't know... a harbor? Which, of course brings up the question of why even build a ship when they are already available.

This story makes less sense the more apologist try and suggest ways it might work.

Come on, if they purchased lumber of sufficient type and quantity to build a ship by the ocean it didn't get there overland.

[_honorentheos]

So we are supposed to believe that somehow Lehi and Co had sufficient money or riches to purchase the lumber, that the lumber was of the type and quantity necessary for a transoceanic voyage, they were at a location where the material could be purchased and a location where a ship could be built and launched. Does it occur to anyone that the only possible location for such an endeavor is, oh I don't know... a harbor? Which, of course brings up the question of why even build a ship when they are already available.

This story makes less sense the more apologist try and suggest ways it might work.

Come on, if they purchased lumber of sufficient type and quantity to build a ship by the ocean it didn't get there overland.

Exactly, and well put.

Every theory requires multiplying insertions to work such as in the case of the subject of this thread - the 'NHM' inscription which have to be reinterpreted to also indicate the name of a place and not just a tribe name, and have to be pronounced 'Nahom' rather than Nihm. Then one has to ignore or reinterpret the text itself so it might still fit.

It's not like the evidence is just there. It always requires one squint at it, turn it around, cover up something else to see how it could possibly work.

Or, it's a product of the 19th Century U.S. frontier.

ETA: And how racist were the Nephites, anyway? That they only mention encountering people who came from some form of Israelite heritage?

[_Themis]

the 'NHM' inscription which have to be reinterpreted to also indicate the name of a place and not just a tribe name, and have to be pronounced 'Nahom' rather than Nihm.

This is what I would like addressed by MG. Do you consider the inscriptions NHM as being used for the name for the location by who ever created them, and if so, why?

Consider this from the wiki article

One of the artifacts discovered at this location was an inscribed altar which has been dated to the seventh or sixth centuries BC. According to the inscription, the altar was donated to the temple by "Bi‘athtar, son of Sawad, son of Naw‘an, the Nihmite"

[_mentalgymnast]

So we are supposed to believe that somehow Lehi and Co had sufficient money or riches to purchase the lumber...

Why would you think they didn't or couldn't have?

...that the lumber was of the type and quantity necessary for a transoceanic voyage...

What if it was imported via the Arabian Sea from India? Was teak exported from India during that time frame?

...they were at a location where the material could be purchased and a location where a ship could be built and launched.

I suppose we'd all have to better educate ourselves on ancient mariners and shipping in and around Khor Rori in ancient times. Can you help us out?

Does it occur to anyone that the only possible location for such an endeavor is, oh I don't know... a harbor?

Anything like a harbor that was active/usable for trading around the Khor Rori region in ancient times? Can you help us out?

Which, of course brings up the question of why even build a ship when they are already available.

What do you mean? Available as sea crossing vessels? How would that have worked as far as the buying and transporting of a large vessel to the Lehites there in Bountiful? Is it possible that they found that it would be easier to build the ship rather than have it delivered or brought to them?

This story makes less sense the more apologist try and suggest ways it might work.

I think the important things is to look at possibilities. If you can help answer some of these questions I have that might bring us closer to any truth that can be had.

Come on, if they purchased lumber of sufficient type and quantity to build a ship by the ocean it didn't get there overland.

What if by sea? Look at a map. India is just across a big pond from where Bountiful would have been.

Just thinking aloud. Look forward to your help/thoughts.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

This is what I would like addressed by MG. Do you consider the inscriptions NHM as being used for the name for the location by who ever created them, and if so, why?

To be honest, and as I've already said during this thread, I'm more interested not only in NHM...but in the whole 1 Nephi 16-17 narrative and how it all fits together. NHM is part of it. It is one part of this travel itinerary of Lehi and Co. that seems to follow a defined path leading to a place where a ship possibly could have been built, supplied, and launched to the New World.

Is it so far fetched? Some of the comments here would seem to dispense with any possibilities of the story having elements of truth. Why would that be?

Not saying that it HAS to be true...but there seems to be a general agreement in these parts that it HAS to be false. Again, why would that be?

Teak from India. I hadn't even heard of that before. Anyone else? Is it possible?

Regards,
MG

[_Fence Sitter]

So we are supposed to believe that somehow Lehi and Co had sufficient money or riches to purchase the lumber...

Why would you think they didn't or couldn't have?

8 years hiding out in the wilderness after leaving in a hurry and abandoning much of their wealth. Yea maybe they lugged around money/riches all that time, but not likely.

...that the lumber was of the type and quantity necessary for a transoceanic voyage...

What if it was imported via the Arabian Sea from India? Was teak exported from India during that time frame?

Dunno but before you jump on the bandwagon that says they could have bought it, you might find out if it was available.

...they were at a location where the material could be purchased and a location where a ship could be built and launched.

I suppose we'd all have to better educate ourselves on ancient mariners and shipping in and around Khor Rori in ancient times. Can you help us out?

Again it's your problem to defend the story not mine.

Does it occur to anyone that the only possible location for such an endeavor is, oh I don't know... a harbor?

Anything like a harbor that was active/usable for trading around the Khor Rori region in ancient times? Can you help us out?

See above. but remember you need an active harbor close enough to NHM at that exact time to make just that part work. Good luck.

Which, of course brings up the question of why even build a ship when they are already available.

What do you mean? Available as sea crossing vessels? How would that have worked as far as the buying and transporting of a large vessel to the Lehites there in Bountiful? Is it possible that they found that it would be easier to build the ship rather than have it delivered or brought to them?

It is also possible God could just have magically transported them across the ocean in small barges with magic glowing rocks inside but most people find that story even more ridiculous that the Lehi journey.
Lumber that size and quantity is not transported overland, hence how ever they got it was by sea, which would have to be by boat, a large boat.

This story makes less sense the more apologist try and suggest ways it might work.

I think the important things is to look at possibilities. If you can help answer some of these questions I have that might bring us closer to any truth that can be had.

You don't seem to understand the crucial difference between possibilities and probabilities when trying to get closer to the truth.

Come on, if they purchased lumber of sufficient type and quantity to build a ship by the ocean it didn't get there overland.

What if by sea? Look at a map. India is just across a big pond from where Bountiful would have been.

Like I said, if it came by sea they didn't need to build their own ships. For the imported lumber scenario to make sense we are now supposed to believe they had just enough money to buy the wood for ships but not enough for a ship itself.

Just thinking aloud. Look forward to your help/thoughts.

Regards,
MG

No you seem to be grasping at straws.

by the way, here is another part that does not make sense.

So God instructs Nephi on how to build a type of ship unlike any other, in which they cross the ocean. They get to the new land where they show they are capable of smelting steel, remember how to domesticate and raise animals unknown in that new land, they are skilled in building mighty temples and, for nearly a thousand years they convey the knowledge of how to read and write a totally secret never to be seen again foreign language from one generation to the next, and yet they never build ships of that type again.

How is it, in spite of their ability to remember all those other things in the new world, they forgot how to build those ships?

[_honorentheos]

Is it so far fetched? Some of the comments here would seem to dispense with any possibilities of the story having elements of truth. Why would that be?

My comments are directly in response to the NHM evidence and the idea the Book of Mormon provides a "turn-by-turn" description of a route that aligns with reality in an inexplicable way that serves as evidence for an ancient author familiar with the Arabian Peninsula circa 600 BCE.

The NHM evidence requires significant reinterpretation of the actual meaning of the inscription, requires additional explanations of what the text tells us were the conditions under which the Lehite party traveled, and really becomes a form of Book of Mormon fan fiction by which the 1 Nephi narrative you are interested in gets rewritten to accommodate this particular version of the fantasy.

It actually bothers me when I read a critic of the Book of Mormon say they see the NHM evidence as even plausible. Revising the internal narrative while requiring one refashion the nature of the so-called evidence may meet a minimum standard of plausibility. But only in the same sense it's plausible we are living in the Matrix.

[Guest]

I noted that earlier. I would be interested in reading more in regards to this...but not sure where to go. Any help?

Time period. Location. Now we do have to remember, that we need to at least allow that Nephi was getting help from God to build the ship. So I'm willing to cut some slack there. But the natural conditions are the natural conditions. Any sources that would show that the wood/trees necessary for building ANY kind of long range suitable boat wouldn't have been at hand in that time and place? What kinds of trees are in that particular area today? Were they different over two thousand years ago?

Can we really know?

Regards,
MG

Yes, MG, we can really know. We can know by the same means that allow us to find oil oil at two miles below the surface in the middle of the desert. We can know by the artifacts (fossils, archeological artifacts, etc.) that are there, as well as the artifacts that are not there.

My response here would be essentially the same as that provided above by Chap. The natural history of the area is what it is. If you are interested in reality instead of fantasy, then about all you can do is read the literature on the natural history of Oman.

That being said, Oman natural history is interesting. It has been worked out in a great level of detail, mainly because of all of the oil company exploration that has been done there.

Perhaps you recall posts on MDB wherein I included images of marine fossils in the Hajar Mountains of Oman at approximately 5,000 to 6,000 feet above sea level. Some of the oldest geologic formations to be exposed on the surface of the Earth anywhere in the hemisphere are found in Oman.

As Chap described, if stands of usable timber had developed during the process of upthrust of the local ancient seabed to 6,000 feet (over millions of years), there would have been evidence (in the geologic strata in which these forests occurred). All of these strata are exposed at the surface at some location in the region. There is no such evidence- not only over thousands of years, but over hundreds of thousands of years.

As Chap has suggested, about all of the apologists have left (or indeed ever had) is "goddidit".

[_Themis]

This is what I would like addressed by MG. Do you consider the inscriptions NHM as being used for the name for the location by who ever created them, and if so, why?

To be honest, and as I've already said during this thread, I'm more interested not only in NHM...but in the whole 1 Nephi 16-17 narrative and how it all fits together. NHM is part of it. It is one part of this travel itinerary of Lehi and Co. that seems to follow a defined path leading to a place where a ship possibly could have been built, supplied, and launched to the New World.

The directions are very vague. Especially the travelling for many days. We also don't have a confirmed site for bountiful that shows could have all the Book of Mormon says it had. But back to NHM. If you read the wiki entry I quoted , does it say the name of the place is NHM or that the person who donated the alters is from the tribe of NHM/Nihmite? It's an important issue in showing whether the inscriptions are really evidence for Book of Mormon historicity. Not being evidence for the Book of Mormon does not mean evidence against in this case.

[_mentalgymnast]

Lumber that size and quantity is not transported overland, hence how ever they got it was by sea, which would have to be by boat, a large boat.

That makes sense.

You don't seem to understand the crucial difference between possibilities and probabilities when trying to get closer to the truth.

What have I said that would cause you to make this accusation? I think I've been open to new possibilities that would lead to probabilities. Unless we explore the possibilities how can we then settle on or make educated hypotheses? To be honest, you seem unwilling to do so.

Like I said, if it came by sea they didn't need to build their own ships.

I think we should hold open the possibility that God may have told Nephi to build his own ship under the direction of the Lord. For some reason, this seems to be a non-starter for you.

For the imported lumber scenario to make sense we are now supposed to believe they had just enough money to buy the wood for ships but not enough for a ship itself.

There may have been other factors also. I just mentioned one.

No you seem to be grasping at straws.

You seem to be avoiding the exploration of possibilities.

So God instructs Nephi on how to build a type of ship unlike any other, in which they cross the ocean.

Hey, at least you're entertaining that as a possibility.

They get to the new land where...they never build ships of that type again.

What type?

Go to the LDS Scriptures. Plug in "ships" and "shipping" into the search bar. It's kind of fun.

How is it, in spite of their ability to remember all those other things in the new world, they forgot how to build those ships?

Or did they?

by the way, India was heavily involved in shipping, building boats, and shipping out teak/lumber in ancient times...at least from what I can see from doing a quick search. I open to correction if I'm wrong. I don't see where it's a far stretch to look at Lehi and Co. trading with and/or purchasing goods from others. You don't have to stick with JUST what you're reading in the scriptures. Think creatively. Yeah, you/I could be wrong...but it's good to explore possibilities.

I don't see where THAT is "grasping at straws".

Regards,
MG