The Nahom Follies

[_grindael]

Ditto, Canpakes. Here is a video on blooming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6uFAv9L734

Notice the tools one needed to work the ore. Now how would Nephi make an anvil and other tools, when he needed the tools to pound the ore to make the tools? All by himself? Or did he dig the ore out of the rock with his bare hands?

[_mentalgymnast]

...think about the step-by-step process it would require for a group of people to mine the earth, create tools and die casts, harvest and cure timber (or find a way to buy it and its associated materials), build a boat, launch the boat (think about what it entails to build a boat...

It is an awesome project to consider. No doubt. But impossible?

Here are some more views on Nephi's shipbuilding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MadvBArisU

At the 2:45 minute point, is that what you would consider to be 'dry dock'? Does the process that you view in this video seem impossible?

I see a bit more clearly as I've participated on this thread why Nephi's brothers really weren't too awfully excited about helping him. It WAS a lot of work and may have seemed impossible to them.

Regards,
MG

[_Chap]

...if you say 'God taught him', it's Game Over for you...

You're not the first one to think that.

1 Nephi 17

16 And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.

17 And when my brethren saw that I was about to build a ship, they began to murmur against me, saying: Our brother is a fool, for he thinketh that he can build a ship; yea, and he also thinketh that he can cross these great waters.

18 And thus my brethren did complain against me, and were desirous that they might not labor, for they did not believe that I could build a ship; neither would they believe that I was instructed of the Lord.

You are effectively saying that God doesn't and would not have had the ability to instruct Nephi on how to build ship?

Period? End of story?

Game over?

Regards,
MG

OK.

God can do anything.

So God did it.

Potuit, decuit, ergo fecit (Just Google that)

So we stop discussing this stuff like it's part of the real world, OK?

Like I said, Game over.

[_Chap]

The first item is merely problematic from a cash/trade standpoint, assuming that Lehi was 'wandering in the wilderness' and living off the land. The second item is more difficult to account for - we could assume that poor Lehi wasn't hand-digging chunks of ore to use in his homemade smelter. And ore isn't something commonly traded, so you'd have to assume that he was trading for pig iron.

And wood, for the drydock and boat structure; and cloth for sails; and rope for rigging; and tar for sealing, and supplies to stock the boat, etc., etc...

I'm not sure what Lehi was doing for work while 'wandering in the wilderness', but it apparently was quite lucrative.

God gave him a credit card. Just like the kind the Apostles get nowadays.

[_mentalgymnast]

This is like the chicken and egg scenario. He made tools from the metal in the ore that he obtained using the tools that were made from the ore that he mined from the tools that were crafted from the ore.

As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't be surprise if Lehi and Co. had basic tools with them as they crossed the desert. The question is whether or not they brought all of the tools necessary for building a ship.

http://www.ageofsail.net/aosbt.asp

Not that these tools are exactly like the ones Nephi would have used, but you get the picture...

Regards,
MG

[_Chap]

This is like the chicken and egg scenario. He made tools from the metal in the ore that he obtained using the tools that were made from the ore that he mined from the tools that were crafted from the ore.

As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't be surprise if Lehi and Co. had basic tools with them as they crossed the desert. The question is whether or not they brought all of the tools necessary for building a ship.

http://www.ageofsail.net/aosbt.asp

Not that these tools are exactly like the ones Nephi would have used, but you get the picture...

Regards,
MG

Stop relying on the arms of flesh, and let God handle it.

He's going to have to do all the heavy lifting anyway, so why not give him the credit from the start?

[_grindael]

This is like the chicken and egg scenario. He made tools from the metal in the ore that he obtained using the tools that were made from the ore that he mined from the tools that were crafted from the ore.

As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't be surprise if Lehi and Co. had basic tools with them as they crossed the desert. The question is whether or not they brought all of the tools necessary for building a ship.

http://www.ageofsail.net/aosbt.asp

Not that these tools are exactly like the ones Nephi would have used, but you get the picture...

Regards,
MG

Yeah, Lehi & Company drug around a heavy anvil and other "basic tools" with them. Thing is, it SAYS that Nephi made the tools, not that they had any. It amazes me how Mormon apologists will choose to ignore the text itself to try and prove the text.

[_Res Ipsa]

I think the important things is to look at possibilities. If you can help answer some of these questions I have that might bring us closer to any truth that can be had.

That's a fundamental point of difference between you and me. When trying to find the truth, focussing on "possibilities" is not important. When you believe in an omnipotent God, anything is possible. If anything is possible, then the possible tells you nothing about the truth.

If you want your best shot at finding the truth, look at all the evidence and focus on what is likely.

[_grindael]

I think the important things is to look at possibilities. If you can help answer some of these questions I have that might bring us closer to any truth that can be had.

That's a fundamental point of difference between you and me. When trying to find the truth, focussing on "possibilities" is not important. When you believe in an omnipotent God, anything is possible. If anything is possible, then the possible tells you nothing about the truth.

If you want your best shot at finding the truth, look at all the evidence and focus on what is likely.

Sounds too much like common sense to me. That'll never fly.

[_mentalgymnast]

I think the important things is to look at possibilities. If you can help answer some of these questions I have that might bring us closer to any truth that can be had.

That's a fundamental point of difference between you and me. When trying to find the truth, focussing on "possibilities" is not important.

For me, in order to ask what I believe to be good questions, I have to look at possibilities. That's what I've been doing in this thread. And others.

When you believe in an omnipotent God, anything is possible.

But as 1 Nephi 16-17 shows, God may help but does not do everything. That seems to be at the crux of many of the issues folks run into. That doesn't do away with His omnipotence by any means.

If anything is possible, then the possible tells you nothing about the truth.

I think it can lead towards a greater understanding of whatever the truth is. I think that has been evident in this thread. At least for me. I've learned a few things and made some adjustments in my thinking. But I'm not at the TRUTH yet. Without looking at possibilities and asking questions I don't see how you are coming any closer to finding truth.

If you want your best shot at finding the truth, look at all the evidence and focus on what is likely.

But the evidence is not always complete. Again, in this thread, for one example, I hadn't even entertained the possibility of a composite view in regards to where the lumber may have come from to build the ship. Not that I'm saying it's TRUE, but it leads in directions other than simply looking at the evidence that might be in one place at a given time and sticking with that evidence come hell or high water. If THAT evidence becomes the final evidence/straw, then it closes doors to further exploration and more questions.

I like being in a position where I haven't jumped the boat, so to speak, it places me in a position where I can continue to ask questions and learn rather than taking a decided on dogmatic position that I must then defend at all costs. I've noticed that on this thread, where I see short little sound bites thrown out there as though they 'rule the day'. They don't. They are simply position statements based on some evidence seen that may only tell part of the story.

I mean, look, before the Hales wrote their book on Joseph's polygamy, what if we had gone on just the available evidence that was available beforehand? It's through continually asking more questions that we are able to come closer to what the truth may be. I think that's what the GA's are currently trying to tell us. Hold true to what you know and continue asking questions and learning. That seems to show some confidence, on the part of the brethren, that they know that if people stick with it and continue to learn...they'll have a greater likelihood of staying. I'm sure they are deeply concerned about those that leave without taking a lot of time and looking at the BIG picture of what the whole restoration narrative is all about, although they may honestly think they do.

I've been there a number of time along the way. That's why I think that the brethren have been encouraging folks to be patient with and accept those with questions and doubts.OTOH, they do seem to be drawing a line in the sand at the same time in regards to where the 'bright line' is as far as doctrinal wiggle room on the part of those that publicly make their views known. They are walking a tight rope for sure.

Regards,
MG