The Nahom Follies

[_mentalgymnast]

*this is the point where you say the Book of Mormon meant he made "more tools"

No, this is the point where I quote what you just said:

...I may make tools to construct the ship...

That's what I've been saying all along. Nephi would not have taken along ship building tools (refer to a picture I linked to earlier), he would have had to make them after their arrival at Bountiful.

Not quite sure why you're arguing this point ad nauseum...


Regards,
MG

[_I have a question]

*this is the point where you say the Book of Mormon meant he made "more tools"

No, this is the point where I quote what you just said:

...I may make tools to construct the ship...

That's what I've been saying all along. Nephi would not have taken along ship building tools (refer to a picture I linked to earlier), he would have had to make them after their arrival at Bountiful.

Not quite sure why you're arguing this point ad nauseum...


Regards,
MG

Just seeing how much of the Book of Mormon you're prepared to throw out in order to maintain your belief in it....

[_mentalgymnast]

So Lehi and Co. could have taken tools/implements along with them on their journey. Seems highly likely that they did.

They wold have had those tools...and any others they obtained along their journey(?)...when they reached Bountiful.

When they reached Bountiful, Nephi then made the tools necessary to build the boat.

See, not so complicated.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Just seeing how much of the Book of Mormon you're prepared to throw out in order to maintain your belief in it....

What am I "throw[ing] out" in regards to the conversation we're having right now?

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

So Lehi and Co. could have taken tools/implements along with them on their journey. Seems highly likely that they did.

They wold have had those tools...and any others they obtained along their journey(?)...when they reached Bountiful.

When they reached Bountiful, Nephi then made the tools necessary to build the boat.

See, not so complicated.

Regards,
MG

Lehi & Co. Could have taken lots of things on their journey.
One thing they didn't take was their gold and silver and precious things.

Miraculously, a year or two later when Nephi & Co. returned to get the plates off Laban (their greedy and murderous Uncle) their gold and silver was still there as if nobody had noticed the whole families absence.

Wherefore, let us be faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord; therefore let us go down to the land of our father’s inheritance, for behold he left gold and silver, and all manner of riches. And all this he hath done because of the commandments of the Lord.

17 For he knew that Jerusalem must be destroyed, because of the wickedness of the people.

18 For behold, they have rejected the words of the prophets. Wherefore, if my father should dwell in the land after he hath been commanded to flee out of the land, behold, he would also perish. Wherefore, it must needs be that he flee out of the land.

19 And behold, it is wisdom in God that we should obtain these records, that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers;

20 And also that we may preserve unto them the words which have been spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets, which have been delivered unto them by the Spirit and power of God, since the world began, even down unto this present time.

21 And it came to pass that after this manner of language did I persuade my brethren, that they might be faithful in keeping the commandments of God.

22 And it came to pass that we went down to the land of our inheritance, and we did gather together our gold, and our silver, and our precious things.

23 And after we had gathered these things together, we went up again unto the house of Laban.

This is an example of Joseph making it up as he goes along and trying, belatedly, to force the dots to join.
Another example is when he introduces fire as a means of melting the ore and panics because he remembers he'd already said the group were eating raw meat.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

12 For the Lord had not hitherto suffered that we should make much fire, as we journeyed in the wilderness; for he said: I will make thy food become sweet, that ye cook it not;

[_Fence Sitter]

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/1-ne/17?lang=eng

And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

It's worth noting that this finding of ore, the molten process, the making of the tools, the chopping of the trees and the construction of the boat took Nephi and the petulant Laman and Lemuel two to three years.

*this is the point where you say the Book of Mormon meant he made "more tools"

Umm, so I suppose the Lord led him to somewhere he could just pick up the ore laying on the ground, since he had no tools. And even if he is picking up ore right off the ground, what is he using for a smelting pot?
(Queue the divine intervention, once again, to explain an already silly story.)

So lets say he has been lugging around a smelting pot or that God makes one magically appear, the next question is either there were people there with lumber he could buy or their weren't, cause we have already established there was no naturally occurring lumber where they built the ship. So now we are supposed to believe that he was able to buy a shipload of lumber but not the tools to build a ship or even the ore to build the tools to build a ship. So some unknown people were importing massive amounts of lumber to a secluded unknown spot but not anything else with which to build a ship? This does not make sense under any circumstances unless, once again God is required to make the story believable.

You know what explains all these problems a lot easier than the numerous instances of deus ex machina? Approaching the story as one made up by a 19th century author who had no clue of the problems involved in building a ship without resources.

This whole exercise in debating the plot holes in an obviously fictional account leads to one simple question for believers?

Who could Joseph Smith NOT have known?

[_Markk]

I don't think that an anvil needs to be the 'stick in the mud' that some would like/want it to be. I would imagine that Nephi, being the creative person that he was, would have been able to 'make do' and then make a more technologically advanced anvil as time went on and materials became available.


Regards,
MG

Hey MG,

I am a weekend metal worker, have a small shop where I fabricate custom things like hinges and latches, and structural hardware etc. I make tools all the time for special bends or clamping etc. That is really not an issue and Nephi could have easily made a anvil of sorts, he made a bellow so he was a pretty sharp fellow. But i go to the local steel store to buy my raw materials, already processed.

The issue I see is finding, mining, and then refining the ore, that is a job and process. The way the Book of Mormon describes the folks they were metal masters, due to Nephi teaching them...and that takes generations to master, especially with metal.

So my point being there should be so much evidence of this that there would be no question at all. They have found molds in Vietnam that date past the Book of Mormon times in a far greater wet environment, museum are full of ancient metals. I am not sure how the Book of Mormon gets a pass on this.

[_I have a question]

So lets say he has been lugging around a smelting pot or that God makes one magically appear, the next question is either there were people there with lumber he could buy or their weren't, cause we have already established there was no naturally occurring lumber where they built the ship. So now we are supposed to believe that he was able to buy a shipload of lumber...

Well...no, because they left behind all their valuables. They had nothing to trade but the women...
Also, instead of trading for the wood...why not just buy the ship that brought it in!?

So many plot holes....

[_mentalgymnast]

Lehi & Co. Could have taken lots of things on their journey.

Including tools/implements.

One thing they didn't take was their gold and silver and precious things.

So now you're saying not only did Lehi and Co. not take along tools/implements...which you seem to be letting up on now... but that they had no means by which to obtain water and fodder for their animals?

The Roman historian
Pliny the Elder (23 bc–ad 79) described the economics
of the frankincense route this way: “Indeed
all along the route they keep on paying, at one place
for water, at another for fodder, or the charges for
lodging at the halts.” 9 The course of the Frankincense
Trail can be explained in one word—water,
the most precious commodity of all to the desert
traveler. The Hiltons noted: “The history of Arabia
is written with water, not ink.”10 The great oases
of western Arabia—Tabuk, Hijra (Madain Saleh),
Dedan (Ula), Medina, Mecca, and Najran—are
all found on the Frankincense Trail or a branch
thereof. Indeed, the course of the Frankincense
Trail was no coincidence; it was there because it
provided a reliable water supply and thus offered
the traveler the best chance of surviving a crossing
of the great deserts.
While we do not have texts from Lehi’s day
that mention the dangers of crossing the Arabian
desert (notably marauders and lack of water) or the
necessity of taking the Frankincense Trail,scholars
assume that the documented historical situation of
later date has remained fairly constant over time
and thus is an accurate indication of the challenges
that Lehi’s party found in Arabia.

I don't see how they could have survived on their trek without the means to provide water for themselves and their animals. They also needed to feed their animals. It seems as thought you're saying that the text of the Book of Mormon has to be very explicit...down to their toothbrushes...as to what they didn't or did have on their journey.

For one that doesn't even believe that the Book of Mormon is the word of God you sure are a stickler on how to interpret it.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Umm, so I suppose the Lord led him to somewhere he could just pick up the ore laying on the ground, since he had no tools. And even if he is picking up ore right off the ground, what is he using for a smelting pot?
(Queue the divine intervention, once again, to explain an already silly story.)

For those that are just joining in on the discussion, we've already covered this earlier. I'm not going to rehash it.

So lets say he has been lugging around a smelting pot or that God makes one magically appear, the next question is either there were people there with lumber he could buy or their weren't, cause we have already established there was no naturally occurring lumber where they built the ship. So now we are supposed to believe that he was able to buy a shipload of lumber but not the tools to build a ship or even the ore to build the tools to build a ship. So some unknown people were importing massive amounts of lumber to a secluded unknown spot but not anything else with which to build a ship? This does not make sense under any circumstances unless, once again God is required to make the story believable.

Same here.

You know what explains all these problems a lot easier than the numerous instances of deus ex machina? Approaching the story as one made up by a 19th century author who had no clue of the problems involved in building a ship without resources.

I don't see why that is the only possible and reasonable way to go. That's evident from the length of this thread and my participation in it.

This whole exercise in debating the plot holes...

You are creating the plot holes where there may be none, if you use a little common sense. It depends on your assumptions/biases/blinders. I've come up with some possible ways of looking at the text and looking for reasonable scenarios for what we see going on...on the ground. It's almost like you haven't really engaged in or thought about anything that I've said.

Those holes HAVE to be there, right? No way can we fill them in. The only way you would be satisfied is if we dig them deeper.

Regards,
MG